Friday, February 14, 2014

Justin Edwards' ecclesiology springs a leak


If your fellowship community/church doesn't do anything when professing Christian couples who are part of your fellowship are fornicating (& maybe even shacking up), prayerfully consider finding another local body of believers. If your church is just going to marry the fornicators instead of practicing biblical discipline for Christians who are sexually immoral, that isn't right. If this describes your fellowship, I've got to be honest with you.
You are in a place that isn't a real church at all.
  • Patte Smith If you are in a fellowship/church where people don't care about your soul, run. And not addressing the sin of sexual immorality is like hating the fornicator(s).21 hours ago
  • Justin Edwards Hey Patte, what do you mean by "fellowship community/church"? Are you distinguishing between a church and another type of gathering of believers?
  • Rho Logy What one calls it doesn't matter very much.
  • Justin Edwards That's not what I was asking, Alan, but thanks anyway.
  • Rho Logy It sure looks like what you were asking. But OK, if you say so.
  • Justin Edwards I am wondering if Patte is making a distinction between a church governed by elders and another kind of gathering of believers not governed by elders, yet both community groups practicing church discipline.
  • Rho Logy It's sad to see "governed by elders" make an appearance yet again as a necessary condition for the existence of a visible local church.
  • Justin Edwards The Bible is the necessary starting point in defining what is a biblical local church. No elders = no local church in the biblical sense and function of the word, therefore no biblical church discipline possible.
  • Justin Edwards But maybe Patte is indeed using the terms in the OP interchangeably to refer to a gathering of believers shepherded by elders, but that is the clarification I am seeking.
  • Rho Logy \\No elders = no local church in the biblical sense and function of the word\\

    I know that you are not interested in actually debating that topic, but what you have said here is false and misleading.
  • Rho Logy \\therefore no biblical church discipline possible\\

    And yet Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 refer to church discipline processes carried out entirely without mentioning elders with any specificity at all.
  • Justin Edwards Neither false nor misleading, and you are correct I don't desire to go back and forth with you as we have beat this horse dead before.
  • Rho Logy Actually, you have made the assertion before, I have refuted it, and you then retreated from the debate. That's not the same thing as beating the horse to death or beating its corpse.
  • Rho Logy For anyone interested, here is one of the places Justin's position was exposed as false. He has made no response to it.

    http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/.../there-is-nothing-that...

  • Justin Edwards It should be noted that in Mat 18, Jesus is speaking to His disciples on whom He will build His church. They are the first authoritative figures in the early church. They were the apostles, of whom elders have now taken their place as authoritative offices in the local church.

    That the Corinthians may not have had elders at the time as the early church was being established, does not justify or validate modern gatherings of believers with no elders. Paul gave his instruction to the Corinthians prior to his letters to Timothy and Titus, who were sent out to appoint elders among the gatherings of believers.

    We now have all of the Scriptures, which is to say we have the complete manual from God to plant and govern/lead local churches in the building up of saints for the work of the ministry, to worship God rightly, and to protect the sheep from wolves and false teaching. This is not possible outside the pastoral leadership of elders, or Christians being submitted to the leaderd Christ has placed over them.
  • Justin Edwards Rho, because I didn't engage your article doesn't mean we didn't have the discussion elsewhere. In the realm of ad nauseam, you win.6 hours ago
  • Rho Logy And in Matthew 18, He never says anything about the elders or apostles being the ones to do ch disc. "Take it to the church."

    \\That the Corinthians may not have had elders at the time as the early church was being established\\


    And yet the church at Corinth was a church.

    We're done here.

(Screenshot here)

3 comments:

Mr. Inflation said...

Rhobligy,

It is possible to engage in tough dialogue with those you disagree without making off-topic insults or personally attacking those you disagree with.

In fact, it's biblical.

blessings
Mark

Rhology said...

I totally agree. Are you implying I did that? Where?

Justin ought to be calling Jon Speed and Marcus Pittman to repent, if he loves them, because it is possible to engage in tough dialogue with those you disagree without making off-topic insults or personally attacking those you disagree with.

Mr. Inflation said...

Rhoblogy,

I was simply responding to a statement you made to me yesterday on JD's Blog.

Some of the dialogue between Christians arguing on twitter and certain blogs, end up going off-topic insulting each other.