tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post231289420838607652..comments2023-10-25T14:20:11.408-05:00Comments on RHOBLOGY: Bill Maher, Osama bin Laden, church and stateRhologyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-14547507106844854262011-05-26T13:39:27.706-05:002011-05-26T13:39:27.706-05:00A few thoughts.
1. Tap should read this, which ma...A few thoughts.<br /><br />1. Tap should read <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2011/05/justified-sin.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>, which makes a strong argument for exactly what Jesus was referring to by "enemies" in the Sermon on the Mount. Under this framework, there is no contradiction, or tension, between the imprecatory Psalms and the NT.<br /><br />2. The imprecatory Psalms express the (rightful) desire of the believer to see God glorified, through judgment upon the wicked, unrepentant, unbeliever. They are a call for justice to be served, and for "things to be set straight," and not a selfish call for personal revenge, using God as a weapon. One can pray for the repentance of the wicked, and also pray that God will judge them (in the manner of the imprecatory Psalms) if they do not repent, and there is no contradiction in this.<br /><br />3. In the same manner, one can rejoice in the death of the wicked, not taking pleasure in the death itself, but in its consequences. When the wicked dies, he is no longer able to propagate evil and injustice, and this is good. The death of the wicked means an opportunity for God to be glorified by good taking the place of what was once evil (i.e. just rulers in the place of unjust rulers, God-fearing men in the place of murderers, etc.), and this is something in which to rejoice. Hence, Prov. 11:10.<br /><br /><i>If the NT is to make clearer the old, then the Little ones in that psalm will represent the Children, as St. Cassian explains, of those those major vices. (He gives a list on Chapter 2 Conference 5)</i><br /><br />I agree with Rho that Cassian's exegesis leaves much to be desired. I'd need to see an argument for the above assertion before I'd come anywhere close to accepting it.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17321272184376541252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-26112080269040130882011-05-25T13:50:55.790-05:002011-05-25T13:50:55.790-05:00That does not mean that a narrative that reads lik...<i>That does not mean that a narrative that reads like history cannot be allegorical or in some way "histo-allegorical" </i><br /><br />That's true.<br />The Psalm in question, on the other hand, is not a historical narrative.<br /><br /><br /><i>we both agree that God cannot contradict himself</i><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br /><br /><i>We both agree that Jesus is the God of the OT.</i><br /><br />Quite so.<br /><br /><br /><br /><i> If Jesus says love you enemies in one place and says in another kill your enemies</i><br /><br />This is a bit skewed.<br />The OT command is to love one's neighbor, and then there are also those well-known commands to destroy an entire people group. The logical conclusion is that the definition of "neighbor" is not "any living person", you know? You hinted at that, but didn't get quite far enough.<br />Jesus' New Covenant kingdom is not a nation with borders and an army and a centralised location, not now. It was before, but not anymore. Thus now the command "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" finds its place in the way the church interacts with the world, but doesn't fit without qualification with the way OT Israel fit with the world.<br /><br /><br /><i>If the NT is to make clearer the old, then the Little ones in that psalm will represent the Children, as St. Cassian explains, of those those major vices</i><br /><br />Whoa, whoa, whoa. You skipped the connection! Why connect this Psalm to that particular NT passage?<br />Why not link it to, say, Jairus' daughter? She was a child. Or to Ephesians 6:1-2? <br /><br /><br /><br /><i>Matthew 5:21-22. The passage without its proper spiritual reading seem over the top and unnecessarily hyperbolic, why would me being angry put me in danger of judgement?</i><br /><br />B/c being unjustifiably angry DOES condemn you. To Hell, specifically.<br /><br />I think what I'm trying to get at is that I don't trust St John Cassian's abilities in exegesis, especially given his poor-quality defense of iconodulia, and I don't see the connection yet to what you've said.<br /><br /><br /><i> But you have to read the text "with the mind of the Church. </i><br /><br />The "mind of the Church" <a href="http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2007/06/athanasius-chrysostom-and-modern-eoc.html" rel="nofollow">is a meaningless phrase</a>, and the sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-46151482307907486952011-05-25T13:39:53.024-05:002011-05-25T13:39:53.024-05:00The text have various meanings. i too am very wear...The text have various meanings. i too am very weary of allegorizing texts to suit our meaning. For the ECFs the first reading of any text should be historical. That does not mean that a narrative that reads like history cannot be allegorical or in some way "histo-allegorical" <br /><br />Now we both agree that God cannot contradict himself, at least if our metaphysical understanding of God's nature is the same(i assume it is.)<br />We both agree that Jesus is the God of the OT. If Jesus says love you enemies in one place and says in another kill your enemies, The nature of God being what it is, we'll assume that even though God is using the word "enemy" for two different "objects" they cannot be same sort of enemy.<br /><br />If the NT is to make clearer the old, then the Little ones in that psalm will represent the Children, as St. Cassian explains, of those those major vices. (He gives a list on Chapter 2 Conference 5)<br /><br />and Vice versa with the OT making clear the new:<br />So to take one example: Matthew 5:21-22. The passage without its proper spiritual reading seem over the top and unnecessarily hyperbolic, why would me being angry put me in danger of judgement? Well because Anger, will inevitable lead you to his 'children' whom st. Cassian says are murders, clamour and indignation. (conf. 5 Chap. XVI).<br /><br />Now obviously you cannot allegorize every text, and your concern on that score are the same as mine. but you have to recognize that sometime as St. Cassian says, that"revelation" belongs to allegory whereby what is concealed under the historical narrative is revealed in its spiritual sense and interpretation." i don't want to turn this into a Catholic v protestant war. But you have to read the text "with the mind of the Church. <br /><br />sorry for typos, didn't proof readTaphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04375511506567572806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-91679808823502035032011-05-25T07:09:49.352-05:002011-05-25T07:09:49.352-05:00Unspam-filtered them.
Thanks.
This is a bit conce...Unspam-filtered them.<br />Thanks.<br /><br />This is a bit concerning to me, however, because it is easy and very pleasing to the flesh to over-allegorise and over-spiritualise biblical texts to the point that they don't mean what they're supposed to mean but instead mean to us what we imagine them, to suit ourselves.<br /><br />If all texts are to be taken allegorically, then the texts that are intended to be taken with that sense are drained of their meaning. Thus Galatians 4, for example, is nothing special.<br /><br />The context must govern which texts are to be taken that way. <br />Are you arguing that the baby-dashing Psalm is to be taken ONLY in the way you said it, or are you saying that that's one of the various meanings of the passage?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-50284055398288046482011-05-24T17:23:24.908-05:002011-05-24T17:23:24.908-05:00i think my last two post went into your spam filte...i think my last two post went into your spam filter. Second post was a correction on the link.Taphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04375511506567572806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-31612333037622807612011-05-24T16:09:30.941-05:002011-05-24T16:09:30.941-05:00Correction the first link in the initial post:
Sh...Correction the first link in the initial post:<br /><br />Should start from here <a href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/cassian/conferences.iii.v.viii.html" rel="nofollow">Conference 14 Chapter 8</a> The Chapter on Spiritual knowledge, unfortunately i linked to chapter 11, but read 8- through 11, my apologiesTapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-33413567044955127732011-05-24T16:01:29.264-05:002011-05-24T16:01:29.264-05:00I have 2 links for you. i fear that i would not b...I have 2 links for you. i fear that i would not be able to elaborate any better than St. John Cassian has on the subject. <b>First Link</b>: <a href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/cassian/conferences.iii.v.xi.html" rel="nofollow">Conference 14 Chapter 8</a> . In this he talks about the senses of scripture, i.e historical vs Spiritual>>tropologial-anagogical.e.t.c... <br />I suggest you read up until chapter 9 Titled "<b>Of the manifold meaning of the Holy Scriptures"</b> As he touches on some examples in between. It is a very short read.<br /><br />After you've done that, we go backward in his narrative to provide a solid example <br /><b>Second Link</b>: <a href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/cassian/conferences.ii.vi.xvi.html" rel="nofollow">Conference 5 Chapter 16</a> You'll notice the way these "nations" are thought of as faults. <br /><br />Anyways read chapter 16 - 19, skip to Chapter 22 read 22 - 25. I suspect it might be hard for you to skip them though, its easier to just read it through though they are very short anyways, and cohere a lot better.Tapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-69465205409269091612011-05-24T14:20:54.500-05:002011-05-24T14:20:54.500-05:00Would you mind explaining why we should think of t...Would you mind explaining why we should think of that Psalm in that way?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13358611.post-60293937760206509942011-05-24T14:10:04.737-05:002011-05-24T14:10:04.737-05:00Hate to say it, but this atheist is actually right...Hate to say it, but this atheist is actually right, at least in some sense. The NT should of course be read in light of the OT. Jesus words should always enlighting our understanding of the OT. Dashing their Childrens heads againts stone should be thought of in a spiritual manner against our spiritual enemies, pace : "against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness"(eph 6:12).<br /><br />Said enough at this time, but i may elaborate on the different senses of Scripture at another time.Tapnoreply@blogger.com