And what exactly is your Biblical basis for "destruction" (?)...there is no Hell in the BibleYou know, you're not the only one in the world who has a problem w/ the doctrine of Hell. Mormons do, JWs do, atheists definitely do, liberals do.
But it's just not a possible position to hold if you care about the Bible.
Matt 7:13 - For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction,
Matt 7:23 - And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Matt 10:28 - Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
Matt 12:37-41 - for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned...The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Matt 23:33 - You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matt 25:41 & 46 - Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
John 5:24 - He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:28-29 - Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
You who claim to care so much about not making Jesus out to be a liar, you have no excuse not to believe in the eternal punishment of the reprobate.
Hear what the rest of the Scripture has to say:
Is 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Dan 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Rom 2:5 - But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:8 - but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:12 - For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 5:18 - Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death
Rom 8:3 - By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh
2 Thess 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 12-13 - 12These are blemishes on your love feasts...casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Rev 20:15 - And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There's more where that came from, but that's a good start.
Excellent post Rhoblogy (or do you prefer your first name?). For me and many of my Futurist friends, the basis of the Preterist versus Futurist belief sits more with "What if?" than "What might happen?" In the end, I think the definition of who needs salvation really settles the future of your life in faith. If you are a Futurist who believes in Hell, of course you want to "save" others from it. If you are a Preterist who doesn't believe in Hell, you want instead to do good deeds and try to be a beacon of good servitude for the Father. I'm not saying Futurists don't do good servitude for the Father, but many congregations and denominations focus on the fear of hell before the servitude to others.
ReplyDeleteI'm about to head out to clean the car (gorgeous evening in Chicagoland!), but I really want to address these verses as best as I can.
Matthew 7:13: From a Preterist perspective, we see Jesus warning the 1st century Jews of the pending (imminent) destruction of them at the Temple. Josephus' record of the war shows how many Jews died. Many of their bodies were thrown into the garbage pit named Gehenna, an area just southwest of Jerusalem and well known to Jews who heard Matthew's Gospel.
Matthew 10:28 doesn't say "hell." And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. As Josephus again shows, in the very generation of the Apostles, judgment was cast on a great number of Jews. Because they did not have faith in the saviour, they were not saved from their bodies thrown into the fiery pits of Gehenna, where bodies were normally tossed by the Roman armies. The use of the word "Hell" is a horrific mistranslation that the Roman Catholic congregation used to scare people to visit their temples of idolatry.
Matthew 11:24: I think you MUST rewind back to verse 23 to really understand the context of Jesus' warnings... 23 "And you people of Capernaum, will you be honored in heaven? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles I did for you had been done in wicked Sodom, it would still be here today.24 I tell you, even Sodom will be better off on judgment day than you." The warning to the people fo Capernaum is important -- it shows focus on a specific people He was addressing.
In Matthew 11:24, Jesus uses the word Hades -- very different from Hell. Hades means "the unseen" but it also means "disappearance." Jesus warned that Capernaum was in danger of disappearing into the unknown (never to be seen again as a city) if they didn't have faith in Him. Looking now at the ruins that sit where Capernaum was (a town that Jesus focused on, recall Cana!), I think God fulfilled that verse well. No one lives at Capernaum now, and never likely will, so how would this prophecy be fulled today if there would be a future Rapture?
Matthew 12:37-41 is also interesting if you go a step further to verse 42: 41 "The people of Nineveh will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent.42 The queen of Sheba will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for she came from a distant land to hear the wisdom of Solomon. Now someone greater than Solomon is here—but you refuse to listen.
Here is Jesus pointing out specifically to "you" meaning those listening, and "this generation" meaning that very generation, generally accepted to be 40 years. He was warning them specifically, in their very generation, not anyone else.
Matthew 23:33 also does not use the word Hell -- 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna? As I have said before, Gehenna was familiar to the Jews (and Romans) of the area because it was the local burning garbage pit of refuse and bodies. As we also know from Josephus, bodies from the Temple War were cast into Gehenna, as part of God's Judgment against the unbelieving Jews.
I don't call Jesus a liar, but I do believe that the Roman Catholic congregation as well as the writers of the KJV and modern KJV offshoots mistranslated the Truth to try to scare people into the Book and their congregations. No thanks. I would be shocked if anyone can prove these truths incorrect, as I have numerous Greek and Hebrew Bibles that portray Hades, Sheol and Gehenna, but never Hell as the Futurist/Dispensationalist/Evangelicals like to sell it.
Isaiah 66:24 doesn't seem to me to mean corporeal suffering, just historical fact of bodies burning and others looking on them with abhorrence. It also does not talk about "eternal" burning at all.
The connection from this Isaiah verse to the New Testament is apparent in Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna,48 `where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' Since Gehenna was constantly on fire, it makes sense that it connects with the Temple War in 63AD to 70AD where the bodies of many of the Jews were cast.
I'm honestly not familiar enough with Daniel 12 to comment, but my notes are as follows: In Daniel, God tells him to SEAL up the book until the End of the Age. In Revelation, God tells him NOT to seal up the book because the time is at hand (very close). Interesting, I'll have to do more reading :)
Romans 2:5: This is a great warning of what exactly happened when God Judged the Jews, at the Temple War, ending their power and title of Chosen People forever.
Romans 2:8: Read Josephus, you'll see the fury God had using the Roman Army, pestilence and pain.
Romans 6:23 And those wages were paid for the believers at Christ's Return, and permanently paid for everyone after that who did not/do not need to be saved from Judgment that already happened.
I'll finish the rest tomorrow, as the sun is setting and I need to vacuum! Thanks for the new topic :) This is one that is close to my heart in my view of a Loving God, one that perturbed me when I was a Futurist Evangelical Dispensationalist!.
Adam,
ReplyDeleteHope the car cleaning went well. Clean cars run better, you know!
Matt 7:13 - I don't know why I should care that history shows that many Jews died in Gehenna. Jesus bringing the image home to them - Gehenna was a trash pit for throwing all sorts of refuse and keeping it constantly burning. It's like me telling an American "Hell is like the heat of a nuclear furnace".
Why would Jesus say that the way is narrow that does NOT lead to destruction? Are you saying that ONLY non-believing Jews died in the destruction of Jerusalem?
And what in the context of Matt 7 would lead me to believe that He's discussing physical death?
Matt 7:23 - you didn't mention.
Matt 10:28 - how in the world could one imagine that one's "soul" could be destroyed in a physical Gehenna?
Matt 11:24 - Obviously, contrasting *Heaven* w/ Hades might give us a clue. "Wicked Sodom" is also a clue - this is punishment for evil.
And again, it's no problem for my position if this is a prophecy about the city of Capernaum. I have cited this in the past as an example of fulfilled prophecy.
But Capernaum was destroyed *for unbelief*. Unbelief is the foundational reason for going to eternal punishment in the NT.
Matt 12:37-41 - OK, so when **in 70 AD** did the "the people of Nineveh...stand up against this generation...and condemn it"?
And just b/c it says "generation" doesn't mean that the Judgment AND Resurrection AND Parousia would take place in this generation. It just says that the men of Nineveh will condemn this generation - that will occur on the Day of Judgment where believers, the repentant, are told that they will judge unbelievers.
Matt 23:33 - your response assumes what it needs to prove.
Matt 25:41,6 - you didn't mention.
Jn 5 - you didn't mention.
Is 66 - "For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched..." You claim that's not eternal. On what textual basis?
ADAM - Since Gehenna was constantly on fire,
>>Go there today - is it on fire NOW? No. So I guess the worm DID die and the fire WAS quenched.
Dan 12 - your response made no sense, but you said you'd come back to it, so OK.
Rom 2:5 - But this letter was written to ROMANS. What happened to those unbelievers in Rome in 70 AD that would conform to the description: "storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed"?
Why wrath? Why righteous judgment? Why storing up for yourself? These people weren't in Jerusalem, you know.
Rom 2:8 - this is what I mean that your god is too small. Everything is Jerusalem for you, it seems.
Again, these people are in ROME. Same questions for Rom 2:5.
Rom 6:23 - this is completely devoid of any taking into acct of the context of Romans. Paul is building an argument - ch 1 - people are evil and rebellious. Ch 2 - Jews and Greeks alike are condemned. Ch 3 - Ditto. Ch 4 - Christ justifies by faith apart from the law. Ch 5 - Christ brings peace w/ God and freedom from the condemnation. Ch 6 - since we are justified and clean from that slavery to sin, let's become slaves to righteousness.
Your response makes no sense to the line of the argument.
ADAM: This is one that is close to my heart in my view of a Loving God
>>I can relate, but think about it this way.
Christ's Bride is the Church, and on the Day we will be joined (by "we" I mean me and the believers in Christ, excluding you unless you repent) in marriage to Him and dwell w/ Him forever. W/o Hell, His Bride is tarnished and spotted.
Also, who are you to judge God as unloving for sending His enemies far away from Him? God DEFINES love - that is not up to you. You are judging God by a human standard, which is blasphemy.
Finally, unbelievers (those headed to Hell, like you) rejected Him in life - what makes you think they would want to be w/ Him for eternity anyway?
I look forward to seeing the responses to what I've said and also to the other psgs I mentioned.
And BTW, you can call me Rhology or Alan, whichever. "Rhoblogy" is a feeble attempt at punning "blog" and "Rhology" together.
Peace,
ALAN
Glad to see you back, Adam. I'd say "He is risen!" but you don't believe that, so never mind.
ReplyDelete(On Matt 7:13)AB DADA: in the very generation (40 years) after Jesus's Resurrection, millions of Jews died in Jerusalem,
RHOLOGY: This is tangential, but millions? I'd be VERY interested in historical data that would demonstrate that one million people lived in ANY urban center 2000 years ago. 10s of 1000s, OK. 100,000 is stretching it.
AB DADA: their bodies were thrown into Gehenna where the bodies burned in the fires? This has no connection with Revelation?
RHOLOGY: It has a fair amount to do w/ Matt 24 but I don't see much that has to do w/ the book of Revelation.
AB DADA: warning that very generation that they will be Judged and their dead bodies tossed into the fire pits of the local garbage dump
RHOLOGY: OK, fine. There are much more important points you leave unanswered while you waste time discussing things we agree on.
(On Matt 10:28)AB DADA: If they died without receiving the redemption of their belief in Jesus, then the Judgment allowed them to die, and their lack of faith did not allow them to be reborn into eternity
RHOLOGY: This was spoken to the Apostles. Since they did not die in Jerusalem (w/ one exception, and he died before 70 AD), how does your answer make any sense?
(On Matt 11:24)AB DADA: The context of who would Judged is very specific -- the Jews of Israel. Israel itself is the harlot in Revelation, and Israel was Judged and not redeemed. The world was, instead.
RHOLOGY: You are all over the place.
Agreed, Israel was judged in 70 AD. We agree - please take that into acct in your future answers.
But the fact that there was no visible return of Christ, no lifting of the Curse, no physical resurrection, and no changing over into the New Jerusalem lets us know that the judgment on Jerusalem and Capernaum were limited and local, similar to the judgment on Sodom, Gomorrah, Pharaoh's Egypt, Nineveh (after Jonah), Tyre, and Babylon in the past.
As for Israel being the harlot of Revelation, OK. I don't care enough to argue it.
If the world was redeemed, why all the evil still? Why do people still sin in the exact same way (and worse, and on a larger scale) as they did before Jesus' coming?
As Turi said, your "redemption" is a failure, a disappointment.
AB DADA: He told them they would be judged because they were unlike the Ninevehs (sp?). The people of Nineveh repented and were not Judged by God, but the Pharisees refused.
RHOLOGY: Agreed, but He didn't ONLY say that.
He also said the Ninevites of that generation would rise up and condemn them on the Judgment day. How, when, and where did that happen? You didn't answer me the 1st time.
(On Is. 66)AB DADA: "Their worm shall not die" -- God isn't going to come and kill the worms and save them. "Their fire shall not be quenched" -- God isn't going to come and put out the flame.
RHOLOGY: Right, God isn't going to put it out, true.
AB DADA: The Bible never said that it would be forever and ever...If the fire goes out 2 seconds after they mortally die, it wouldn't matter to them, because they're dead forever. Yet if God came and saved them 2 seconds BEFORE they died, then they would be saved. It isn't about eternity, it is about not being saved from fire and worms while they were still alive.
RHOLOGY: You are proving to be allergic to context.
Isaiah 66:24"And they shall go out and look on **THE DEAD BODIES OF THE MEN** who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (emph. mine)
How could a fire that "will not be quenched" be quenched? How could a worm that "shall not die" die? This is what your position forces you into.
(On Rom 2:5)AB DADA: The letter was written to the recently unexiled believers in Rome -- the Roman Christians,
RHOLOGY: OK, how were the Roman Christians changed in 70 AD, as numerous psgs I've already cited tell us that we will be changed at the Parousia and Resurrection?
AB DADA: All are already part of His Bride, in His Church here in His Kingdom.
RHOLOGY: Assertion w/o an argument.
AB DADA: You think that some part of 2 billion Christians are the ones who will be "chosen," against God's Book.
RHOLOGY: I don't have any idea how many - you were the one who proposed the figure of 2 billion.
If you believe it's "against God's Book", you have a long way to go to prove it. You've barely gotten started.
AB DADA: 1 Timothy 4:10 shows that Christ came for everyone, especially believers, not just believers.
RHOLOGY: Let's see how the context supports that claim.
1 Tim 4:6If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
11Command and teach these things. 12Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Looks like the context is Paul telling Timothy how to be a good servant, a good teacher, telling him why we work for God.
It's very telling that the best you can do is pull a verse out of a psg that doesn't speak to the subject at all; it's an off-hand remark surrounded by other things unrelated to soteriology.
And I don't deny that Christ is the Savior of all people. Whosoever will come are saved - His grace is sufficient even if every single person who ever lived had saving faith in Him. His atonement is sufficient.
But what do you think it means that He is the Savior "**especially** of believers"? And in v. 16, "you will save both yourself and your hearers". Sounds like there was sthg to be saved FROM, ie, Hell.
AB DADA: There is no Hell, as I proved before.
RHOLOGY: Haha, where?
AB DADA: the organized religion that wants power and control over your life created that. Fear = power = control = profit.
RHOLOGY: Or maybe God ordained it, and sinful people who are headed to Hell perversely took advantage of others by threatening people w/ Hell though they themselves were storing up condemnation for themselves as well.
Just b/c some have taken advantage of the truth doesn't make it less true.
AB DADA: Organized religion is the very thing Christ came to fight. Instead, He organized all men equally to love each other and not judge each other
RHOLOGY: In light of Matthew 16 and 18, this claim is laughable.
AB DADA: I can pinpoint, line by line, how Revelation was completed in 63AD to 70AD
RHOLOGY: And yet you have so far proven unwilling to deal w/ more than 1/2 of my psgs on Hell and you have run away screaming from trying to deal w/ the Resurrection and Judgment. I'm still waiting.
Peace,
ALAN
Rhoblogy: This is tangential, but millions? I'd be VERY interested in historical data that would demonstrate that one million people lived in ANY urban center 2000 years ago. 10s of 1000s, OK. 100,000 is stretching it.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Josephus alone, at least 1.1 million Jews were slaughtered in the First Jewish-Roman War. Maybe "millions" is pushing it, but over a million, for certain. Eusebius and Tacitus also have numbers as high or higher, but I have to actually look up what they said. Nonetheless, it was because of this Judgment by God that the Jewish Diaspora occurred -- Israel was forever gone. Even today, modern Israel is more meddling by foreigners than a true Jewish State. Most Jews I know in America want to have nothing to do with modern day Israel, where the population of Muslims exceeds Jews significantly. Old Israel is gone, the exact Judgment that Christ promised.
Rhoblogy: It has a fair amount to do w/ Matt 24 but I don't see much that has to do w/ the book of Revelation.
I can understand that -- most Futurists see Revelation as literal rather than figurative. As I've said before, Revelation was written/spoken in the identical language to so many other of God's history in the Old Testament. God came before "on the clouds" to Judge various peoples, but no one saw him -- but they understood that god "coming on the clouds" meant God working Judgment on people. This is no different in Revelation.
Revelation is specifically written as a prophecy to Israel's pending Judgment by God. Israel (the harlot) was involved with Babylon (Rome) in serving mortal kings instead of God. Revelation's painted picture is, verse for verse, exactly what happened in the Roman-Jewish war:
Revelation 17:10 (NKJV) "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
5 Kings would be fallen when this prophecy would be fulfilled: Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. One would be reigning during the fulfillment: Nero (the Beast of Revelation). One would reign up to the finality of Judgment, but only for a short time: Galba, who reigned only 7 months up until 69AD and the war's imminent end.
Revelation 17:9 (NKJV) "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Rome was known as the City of Seven Hills (historically). This is confirmed with writings of antiquity. The Woman is Israel, who sat under the rule of "the seven mountains." The people of Jerusalem knew exactly what Revelation was regarding.
It is obvious what Revelation was regarding, and it sure wasn't 2000 years after Christ. Christ died/was resurrected in 31 AD (some say 29AD, some say 36 AD). He said in Matthew 24: 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place, and we know that "generation" means 40 years. 70AD fits within that 40 year time frame of when He said "this generation" -- 29+40 = 69, 36+40 = 76. It is exactly as He said it would happen, to whom it would happen, how it would happen. He even said "all these things take place" meaning complete fulfillment.
Rhoblogy: This was spoken to the Apostles. Since they did not die in Jerusalem (w/ one exception, and he died before 70 AD), how does your answer make any sense?
Good question. I don't have any notes on me right now (working remotely today!), but from memory, I believe that we did see many Apostles perish during the Tribulation: Paul in 67AD, Peter in 64AD (Great Fire), Andrew was crucified by Nero (circa 68AD, I believe), Jude (65AD), Simeon the Zealot (65AD). These are the ones I recall from memory and what bookmarks I have on this laptop. They were taken, as promised, to be with Jesus forever and ever. Their mortal deaths were gruesome, but their immortality can not be debated with me.
Rhoblogy: But the fact that there was no visible return of Christ,
There was never expected to be one. The English translation of "Jesus's Coming" was actually the Greek work Parousia, which does NOT mean coming but "presence." Over and over the Greek, and Hebrew, texts speak of the Presence of Jesus, not His actual coming. It is a mistranslation created by the modern dispensationalists to sell their variety of Christianity. This mistranslation goes back to KJV, but is mostly blamed on Moody, Scofield and their illegitimate texts.
no lifting of the Curse, no physical resurrection, and no changing over into the New Jerusalem lets us know that the judgment on Jerusalem and Capernaum were limited and local, similar to the judgment on Sodom, Gomorrah, Pharaoh's Egypt, Nineveh (after Jonah), Tyre, and Babylon in the past.
There was never a promise of lifting the curse for mortals -- for all we know the curse came from being banned from the Tree of Life and not from the acquisition of sin. Revelation 22 speaks of what awaits for eternity, I believe. The Book of Genesis is unclear at best. There was never a promise of a physical resurrection, but I understand how Futurists read into that. I promise to work hard to investigate a better angle at showing others that a physical resurrection was not expected, nor did it happen. The New Jerusalem was never to be a worldly place or a physical place, but I don't have much here to give more inspection, sorry. More to come there (noted).
If the world was redeemed, why all the evil still? Why do people still sin in the exact same way (and worse, and on a larger scale) as they did before Jesus' coming?
Evil existed before Man did, certainly. Genesis proves so -- Adam (and Eve) were Created AFTER the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was created. God knew Evil, and when He Created all, He said it was "good" meaning it was part of His Creation. Evil does not mean sin. Sin is when you break God's Law. Jesus absolved and fulfilled the Law, so sin would not be binding. Sin is powerless.
As Turi said, your "redemption" is a failure, a disappointment.
It isn't mine.
Rhoblogy: Agreed, but He didn't ONLY say that.
He also said the Ninevites of that generation would rise up and condemn them on the Judgment day. How, when, and where did that happen? You didn't answer me the 1st time.
I answered you fully and completely. He was speaking about how the actions of the People of Nineveh would Judge the actions of the People of Israel -- by the same process. To read a literal Judgment is to refuse all the prior Judgments in the Old Testament that did not occur literally as God specifically explained them. No Judgment happened, ever, the way that the mortals expected them to occur, but they DID happen. God's Judgment in Revelation/Matthew was specifically for Israel, for their failure to listen.
Rhoblogy: "And they shall go out and look on **THE DEAD BODIES OF THE MEN** who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Again, this was not written to be a literal "never" by any means -- it explains the magnitude of those bodies burning. Think of 1.1 million dead Jews, many tossed into the firey garbage pit of Gehenna, and you can understand the prophecy and the fulfillment. Even Josephus, Tacitus and Eusebius were amazed at the burning bodies, which seemed everylasting at the time of the final Judgment.
Rhoblogy: OK, how were the Roman Christians changed in 70 AD, as numerous psgs I've already cited tell us that we will be changed at the Parousia and Resurrection?
Mortally and physically? Not at all. But the burden of perfection was fulfilled, the Old Covenant was sealed, and those who listened and scattered to the mountains were freed from the mortal and spiritual Judgment that happened. Remember the call for the Judeans to flee to the mountains (in the Book)? Josephus shows that did happened -- and they were "saved" from the massive death. Matthew 24:15-16 -- look for the abomination that causes desolation (the Roman Army!) and flee to the mountains surrounding Judea. Will the whole world flee to the Judean mountains today? No. But they did in 70 AD as Nero's Army approached. Why is this significant? Luke 21:20: 20 "And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived.21 Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city.22 For those will be days of God's vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. Yes, this happened. The armies surrounding Jerusalem, and the believers fled. This all happened in 66 AD. The Christians, as recorded by Josephus, ran away. Then, from 66 AD to 70 AD (42 months, as prophecized in Revelation!), the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and murdered the Jews, as God's Judgment. Just as Revelation predicted. Even the Roman Troops being in Jerusalem in the Temple (as recorded by Josephus) was an abominable act -- see Mark 13:14: "The day is coming when you will see the sacrilegious object that causes desolation standing where it should not be." Amazing!
Rhoblogy: Looks like the context is Paul telling Timothy how to be a good servant, a good teacher, telling him why we work for God.
It's very telling that the best you can do is pull a verse out of a psg that doesn't speak to the subject at all; it's an off-hand remark surrounded by other things unrelated to soteriology.
Sorry brother, that doesn't work. What we see here is Paul telling Timothy to be a good servant, because Christ came for everyone, but especially believers. Paul was defining "believers" here, and wanted Timothy to be in that party. You're the one twisted the verse against that specific call for who Christ came for -- all men.
Rhoblogy: Haha, where?
I'm glad you asked. I found a GREAT article regarding Hell and the Book that I will now use rather than try to remember/write everything. This article even finds some "Hell" references that I forgot or didn't know about previously. Please read it -- http://www.gospelthemes.com/hell.htm
Rhoblogy: In light of Matthew 16 and 18, this claim is laughable.
New can of worms, but I have pretty good reasoning to share that Christ's "church" would be the Body of Believers, not an active "building." The Temple is inside us, not built around us or on top of us. The Church of Christ is people, not organizations. The modern day "church" is akin to the Temple Worship of the Pharisees -- don't do what you say, just control others.
Rhoblogy: And yet you have so far proven unwilling to deal w/ more than 1/2 of my psgs on Hell and you have run away screaming from trying to deal w/ the Resurrection and Judgment. I'm still waiting.
Actually, from the people I've sent to read what I say here, it seems I am nodding more heads than getting negative comments. I've shown you parts of why Judgment was only for Israel. I've shown you parts of how Revelation has been completely satisfied, and I will continue to do so -- name a verse, I'll explain in simple, historically accurate terms where I'm coming from.
I've never run away. If I missed paragraphs, it was in error, not on purpose. There's a lot to go through.
Thanks, brother, keep it going.
Hi... I've been strolling up and down the earth and thought I'd play with your Worms and see if any fish'll bite.
ReplyDeleteWorms:
Jesus was describing a desolation and used the word Gehenna. obviously he was relating it to the death and destruction they could see plainly in the valley, where the worm and fire consumed bodies. Once again.. DEATH. Jesus was referencing Isaiah 66 (the overthrow of Jerusalem which was soon to come?). "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa. 66: 23, 24.
Such was the use of language at the time the bible was written. Jonah 2:6 says that he was in the deep of the water forever.. but we know that it wasn't actually forever. Geddit? The writers allowed themselves such poetic licences... Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever." 1 Samuel 1:22. Yet in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." And although not a biblical text, Josephus says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable," even though the temple was destroyed at the time of his writing.
Hey Moth,
ReplyDeleteHope you had a good weekend!
Fish are biting around here, that's for sure (mostly thanks to Adam!).
--Jesus was describing a desolation and used the word Gehenna. obviously he was relating it to the death and destruction they could see plainly in the valley, where the worm and fire consumed bodies.
>>I agree 100%.
--Jesus was referencing Isaiah 66 (the overthrow of Jerusalem which was soon to come?).
>>I agree - that is highly possible.
--Such was the use of language at the time the bible was written.
>>Yes, but/and that's also the use of language in modern times. Metaphorical language is employed in 100s of languages (I would be willing to bet that it is employed in every language in human history, but I don't know who could tell us that, other than someone like Noam Chomsky).
And that which sets metaphorical language up for its power is the fact that, more often, metaphors are NOT employed - we're just talkin' regular. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a word for "metaphor"; the definition of "metaphor" would be "expression" or "language" or "word".
--Jonah 2:6 says that he was in the deep of the water forever.. but we know that it wasn't actually forever. Geddit?
>>Absolutely.
--The writers allowed themselves such poetic licences... Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever." 1 Samuel 1:22. Yet in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord."
>>Absolutely. (Samuel was lent to the Lord as long as he lived, but I get it - "forever" vs "long as he lives", though I would also argue that Samuel *is* the Lord's forever, having served Him all his life and then for all eternity in Heaven.)
--And although not a biblical text, Josephus says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable," even though the temple was destroyed at the time of his writing.
>>You may know this, but at Arlington Nat'l Cemetery in Virginia, there's an "eternal flame" at the grave of Robert F Kennedy. So, yes, this kind of language is employed all the time over the centuries of human history. I agree.
I just don't think that, in the case of Adam's argument, the psg doesn't go against him. It means *something* when it says that "the worm shall not die" and the "fire shall not be quenched". If Adam could offer an alternative explanation of what that means, I am 100% willing to take a look at it.
Thanks for stopping by! My guess is that this debate is less than enthrallingly interesting to you, but you seem to have read a fair amount of it despite that. Bravo! ;-)
Peace,
ALAN
Hi Rhoblogy, hell indeed is often ridiculed in JW circles. They focus on "God is Love", but don't quite connect "God is Holy, Holy, Holy" with the understanding God separates Sin from His presence.
ReplyDelete"I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits".(Mat.7:15-20).
ReplyDeleteAs an outsider looking in, I just don't understand what good comes from all of this arguing. Please don't forget non-Christians are watching you. If this is what Christianity is all about - flexing intellectual muscles in regards to Scripture - then it seems a membership few would want to join or even qualify for, for that matter.
There are people out there without a lick of education, with no knowledge of Theology or Religion or History, who have no idea what Jewish culture looks like, who have no clue what a Futurist is or a Preterist, who maybe don't even know that much Scripture...but their hearts bleed for Christ. They are humble, they are loving, they are giving, they esteem others as better than themselves and they live out the Scriptures daily because God has written the law in their minds AND hearts and they are letting HIM decide truth for them by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And they are out there applying it.
I don't know all of you and am making no judgments about what type of persons you are. But like many others, all I see it's what's on this blog- and what I see is a lot of Christians sitting around arguing with each other. Honestly, that's it. Where is the positive message? Where is the truth about what's right instead of always pointing out what's wrong? I would so much rather see a blog filled with living testimonies of God's love evidenced in your lives and how your hearts our changing because of His power. Tell me about your adventures in the world - your prodigal moments and your moments of triumph. SHOW me who Jesus is. Share the stories of when God penetrated your heart and you cried like a baby...and show me your praise and admiration and reverance for what an amazing God you serve...and the Truths you are learning because of His glory. WHERE is His glory???
Again, I guess I might just be missing the purpose behind this blog and if so, I apologize ahead of time. But if it is supposed to inspire me, it doesn't. If it's supposed to help me grow in God because of the knowledge I'm learning, it doesn't. With all due respect, I just don't know that I care that much about what A.B. Dada thinks or what Rhobology thinks or anyone really...I want to know God's Truth. Because HIS Truth has a way of breaking your heart and penetrating your soul to a point of conviction and change and brokeness and humility and surrender. I don't recognize those Truths here, no matter how biblically sound all of these opinions might be.
My honest heart on this matter is that these "conversations" leave me empty and more confused. They don't inspire me to change - they inspire a shifting in my seat. A slight feeling of "uncomfortableness" that leaves me wondering if the conversation is about to turn ugly. They leave me sad. They don't feel like Jesus. They don't feel like love. They don't feel like soul-quenching truth that cuts like a knife - they feel like man's opinions. They feel empty and they leave me wishing Jesus were here.
And they leave me wondering where the fruit is.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI answered you here.
You can respond wherever you like.
Peace,
ALAN
i didnt read all these posts but saw one above that mentioned, "if you are a preterist and do not believe in hell..."
ReplyDeletenot sure about all the detail on this debate but let me mention that most preterists i know, such as myself, do believe in hell.
and of course, there is a difference between "partial preterists" such as i, and "full preterists." i hope you are referring to full preterists as those who do not believe in hell.
peace out.
Yes, I've been discussing w/ AB DADA, who is a Hyper-Preterist.
ReplyDeleteYou can see here for a layout of my arguments against his position.
I have Partial Preterist (Orthodox Preterist) leanings myself, actually. :-)