Hairstylist refuses service to homosexual politician

If that were really the case, what would that politician do to that stylist?

Instead, it's the other way 'round.

The governor sensibly votes with her feet. What if a Tea Party stylist had refused service to, say, Barney Frank and made it known he was doing so because Frank is homosexual? What would have happened?

When shallow thinkers create Facebook pages

Rhology said:
I would like to ask you a serious question. 
You make statements about morality, saying "this is morally reprehensible", or the equivalent thereof.

How do you know what is morally right and wrong? Just a hint for what will come in the future, I will be asking you "how do you know?", "why?" and "so what?" an awful lot, so bear that in mind as you prepare your answer.

Here is a quick primer with some helpful links that I wrote a little while ago to help you sharpen your answers.
http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2008/07/quick-summation.html

Thanks!

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    Pro-Discussion Who is making those statements?
    

    
    
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    Rhology You. You said it was morally wrong to compare abortion to the Holocaust. If you didn't, please let me know; I must have misunderstood.
    

    
    
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    Mark as Spam

    Pro-Discussion I don't think I used the phrase "morally" wrong. I don't like vague terms like that.
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion But how would you feel if both of your parents were murdered, someone got ahold of the crime scene photos, and suddenly a bunch of protestors decided to make posters/fliers/billboards with pictures of your bloody dead parents to push their beliefs? Would it really matter how "right" those beliefs are? Wouldn't you be extremely turned off by them no matter how "good" of a cause they stand for?
    

    
    
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    Sam Winchest To me its morally wrong to compare abortion to the holocaust because my family went through those camps, most of my nonna(grandma's) side of the family was either hiding, in the camps about to be killed or used as slave labor. Including my grandma who was just a little girl at the time.
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion 
    

    yes, same here. people like Rhology think it's perfectly acceptable to get people's attention this way and it will never, ever be acceptable. how can you expect us to respect the pre-born more when you can't respect the lost lives of people who had families, memories, dreams, hopes, stories, wishes? and the ancestors that are still around? seems like you're fighting fire with flame-throwers and gets the complete opposite of sympathy accomplished.

    
    

    
    
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    Rhology I might feel bad, emotionally hurt. Is that a bad thing? How do you know?
    Why won't it be acceptable? It's acceptable to ME. Why should others accept your definition of acceptable and not mine? Is there a way to know which is correct? If not, so what? If so, what is it and how do you know?
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion If you just admitted that something is emotionally hurtful to a person and demand an explanation for why that's a bad thing, I don't think I can offer much more to this conversation.
    Why isn't it acceptable? See everything I said in my last post after the second time I used the word "acceptable". Read it several times if you have to.
    

    
    
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    Morgan Catesby Yeah man, but like... what is "is"? Is it like... real? Are we real, man? Is real real?
    
    Shit bro stop sitting on that joint, pass it here already.
    

    
    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    I'm going to ask you again. You obviously FEEL that hurting someone emotionally is bad, but you haven't DEMONSTRATED that it is.
    
    
    I'm asking you how you know it's bad to hurt someone emotionally.
    
    
    See, I can answer the question very, very easily. I look to the revelation of the all-good all-powerful God of the universe, who has told me it's wrong to do certain things (like rape people or dismember children in the womb). I can know with certainty those are wrong.
    
    Let's take rape. How do you KNOW it's wrong. Don't tell me you wouldn't like it. You may not like broccoli, but that doesn't make broccoli bad, does it? Tell me why it's wrong.

    
    

    
    
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    Morgan Catesby Hey guys did you know atheists can't have morals?!
    
    I'm 12 and just thought of this all by myself. Look how clever I am.
    

    
    
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    Morgan Catesby Rhology, I read in a book once that it was wrong not to punch you in the face. So I know with certainty that it is right to punch you in the face.
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion 
    

    Rhology, please demonstrate how you KNOW god exists and you happen to know EXACTLY what he/she/it wants based on a piece of poorly-translated centuries-old literature. I could tell you that I know rape is wrong because a wise old talking elephant told me. You would not be able to prove to me that I'm lying, nor discredit this handsome talking elephant.
    
    Since you're seemingly going for an argument that your god is the only correct barometer for feelings like "right", "wrong", "moral", etc. - I will need a report of why it is always a better idea.
    
    Why is your knowledge of the wrong-ness of rape better because "gold told you"? Did he really have to? Is that one such a toughie to realize without question?

    
    

    
    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    ‎--"did you know atheists can't have morals?!"--
    
    
    Pretty clear Morgan isn't taking this seriously. I've never said anything of the sort. One wishes Morgan would have read something I suggested.
    What I say, rather, is that atheists' morals are purely arbitrary and have only imaginary authority. They are not normative in any way. They are merely constructs that humans build to foist upon other humans (ie, cram down others' throats), but the 'right'-ness of them always comes down to might makes right, who has the power to enforce their preferences on others.
    
    --" I read in a book once that it was wrong not to punch you in the face. So I know with certainty that it is right to punch you in the face."--
    
    What is that book's claim to moral authority? Is it the written revelation of the God of the universe?

    
    

    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    ‎--"please demonstrate how you KNOW god exists"--
    
    
    You're still not getting it.
    If God doesn't exist, my questions to you stand as stated, and thus unless you answer them, everyone is justified in ignoring any moral statement that anyone makes.
    You can complain about someone comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Everyone will be 100% justified in shrugging, 'so what'?
    You can go out and rape 100 people. Everyone will be 100% justified in shrugging, 'so what'?
    
    So, don't change the subject. Answer my questions.
    
    If you really want to know whether God exists, go to my blog.www.rhoblogy.blogspot.com You'll see on the sidebar "Some good arguments for theism". Go thru them.
    
    --" poorly-translated centuries-old literature"
    
    Poorly translated? You don't even know what you're talking about. Substantiate this comment. What is your evidence?
    
    --"Why is your knowledge of the wrong-ness of rape better because "gold told you"?"
    
    That's an odd way to frame the question. I can't answer that.
    Here is what I think you're getting at, though. If God, the Creator of the very universe and all of mankind, who is pure and holy, tells us something on His own authority, makes a law, and warns that breaking that law will lead inexorably to eternal and difficult punishment, we must listen.
    Here's more on that: http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2007/11/contrasting-atheistic-preferences-and.html
    
    --" Is that one such a toughie to realize without question?"--
    
    We'll have to see. Answer my questions and we'll find out.

    
    

    
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion 
    

    ‎"atheists' morals are purely arbitrary and have only imaginary authority."
    
    
    i feel very sorry for you if you believe that.
    
    
    why is one's own convictions, one's own person, considered more "imaginary" than "god"?
    
    I have answered your questions - I know (with or without a voice/scripture telling me so) that rape is bad. Not because "I don't like it" (you know, like broccoli... (???)) but because I'm lucky/smart/blessed/awake enough to JUST KNOW.
    
    Perhaps your god whispered it to me in my sleep one night. I can't be sure.
    
    Does the almighty word of your lord have to tell you everything before you know it to be true in your heart? If you were born in a nation somewhere that had never heard the gospel or any scriptures, what kind of person do you think you'd be?

    
    

    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    ‎--"i feel very sorry for you if you believe that."--
    
    
    So prove me wrong. Give me a reason to think that the morals of ANYONE, in a universe where there is no God, are not arbitrary.
    
    
    --"why is one's own convictions, one's own person, considered more "imaginary" than "god"? "--
    
    Did I say they were imaginary? No, I said their AUTHORITY is imaginary. Why SHOULD anyone do what YOU think is right/acceptable?
    
    --"but because I'm lucky/smart/blessed/awake enough to JUST KNOW. "--
    
    Ah, well, you know what? Joe Doe knows (with or without a voice/scripture telling him so) that rape is obligatory. Not because "he likes it" (you know, like broccoli... (???)), and not that it's morally PERMISSIBLE, but because he's lucky/smart/blessed/awake enough to JUST KNOW that it's OBLIGATORY.
    Please prove Joe wrong, acting as if your worldview is correct.
    I can easily do so, acting as if my worldview is correct. Can you?
    
    --"Perhaps your god whispered it to me in my sleep one night. I can't be sure. "--
    
    Not if God doesn't exist. So please answer the question out of your own understanding.
    
    --"Does the almighty word of your lord have to tell you everything before you know it to be true in your heart?"--
    
    (Talking about MY worldview now.) No, but I can't CONFIRM anything without some support outside of me, and the ultimate authority for morality and rationality is God Himself.
    
    --" If you were born in a nation somewhere that had never heard the gospel or any scriptures, what kind of person do you think you'd be?"--
    
    A sinner, just like I am today. What's the point of this? If you'd grown up in a tribe that greatly valued childbirth and childrearing, maybe you'd be speared to death already for your pro-choice stance. So what?

    
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion If after all the communication I thought we were engaging in for the last several days, you still accuse me of having a "pro-choice stance" then why should I keep answering questions if you're clearly not listening to anything I've posted?
    

    
    
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    Rhology ‎"Anything"?
    Please excuse the fact that I've confused your continual opposition to abolitionism with being "pro-choice". Go ahead and educate me succinctly as to what your position is.
    And I don't think I've ignored EVERYthing you've said. I've been very specific on this thread.
    Also, why aren't you answering any of my questions?
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion 
    

    I cannot answer your questions about why/how I know something is wrong other than a simple "I just know it is", which you feel is arbitrary in comparison to being told by god. I understand that. You have every right to see my personal moralcompass as invalid if you wish.
    
    Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that I am 100% pro-life. Why should I not dare to speak up if my feelings are simply "excuse me, I'd like to save the unborn too, but maybe your methods of holocaust exploiting/slavery comparisons/preaching against birth control/etc. are doing a bit more harm for your cause than good?" ?
    
    I can't back this up with proof (aside from Canada having both the lowest abortion rates AND a no-shame culture), it's just a feeling. Every single pro-choicer I've met is simply turned off by the pro-life movement because of their tactics of spreading the message more than the message itself.

    
    

    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    OK, then Joe Doe thinks rape is obligatory. Ask him why and he'll tell you: I cannot answer your questions about why/how I know something is right other than a simple "I just know it is".
    
    
    Fair enough, right? It sounds like your position results in a completely relative morass. Why do you bother making moral statements at all? Should we all just bow to your moral intuitions?
    
    --"Why should I not dare to speak up if my feelings are simply "excuse me, I'd like to save the unborn too, but maybe your methods of holocaust exploiting/slavery comparisons/preaching against birth control/etc. are doing a bit more harm for your cause than good?" ? "--
    
    For starters, you're not pro-life.
    Secondly, because you can't define harm or good, as we've seen, outside of "I just know". But I "just know" that our methods are awesome. Why should I change my mind?
    
    --"I can't back this up with proof (aside from Canada having both the lowest abortion rates AND a no-shame culture), it's just a feeling."--
    
    You say you can't back it up and then you lamely throw in an attempt to prove your position true.
    Just b/c canada has a low abortion rate doesn't help you. There are many, many factors involved in people getting abortions. Where is your detailed study proving that the factor you think is the central influence is in fact the central influence?
    
    --"Every single pro-choicer I've met is simply turned off by the pro-life movement because of their tactics of spreading the message more than the message itself."--
    
    Wow! You must know, what? Literally DOZENS of them!
    Sorry, dozens is not statistically significant.
    
    So... in essence, we've seen you have nothing.
    Unless you give me some reason to think your position is true, why should anyone listen to you?

    
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion 
    

    Here's the beauty of that last question (that hopefully also answers all prior) - NOBODY should listen to me! I'm just a 27-year-old wannabe-comedian/writer from Chicago with an outlook on this subject that is neither fiercely standing up for one side or the other. Do you think I enjoy having both my pro-life and pro-choice friends think I'm some sort of fence-sitting gutless traitor? It's not entirely fun. I'm only doing this (running the page) for people who are interested in educating each other without belittling, as I've said many times.
    
    As for Joe Doe, he sounds like a real jerk! Thankfully we live in a country that will lock him up for his crimes. I really do enjoy talking with you, Rhology, even when it seems like you're getting borderline sarcastic or pissed off at me.

    
    

    
    
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    Rhology 
    

    ‎--"NOBODY should listen to me!"--
    
    
    OK, sounds good. Thanks.
    I warn you - the next time you show up anywhere where I hang out and try to make a moral statement, I'm going to remind you you said this, and I'm going to preserve it on my blog.
    
    Here's the answer to your conundrum. God has spoken, and clearly. Nobody should listen to ME either, except insofar as I repeat and reflect the truth, reason, and righteousness of Jesus Christ. When I accurately repeat and reflect what He has said, every person on Earth is obligated to listen and obey 100%, because He is the maker, the creator. He is the fundamental and necessary moral foundation.
    His message is: Repent and believe, obey and be baptised. Your sins will be fully forgiven, you will have eternal life, your irrationality will be replaced with truth and reason, and your foolish worldview will be replaced with the solid rock of Jesus Christ.
    
    I urge you not to wait, not to delay. Today is the day of salvation. You don't know whether you'll live another minute. Take hold of Christ. Beg Him to save you, and He will.
    
    Or don't, and stand condemned and openly foolish as someone who makes moral statements and then, when pressed, says "NOBODY should listen to me!"

    
    

    
    
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    Pro-Discussion ‎^ you heard him folks, choose wisely!
    
    What I was saying (if you're going to give me the honor of a blog quote, be sure to know the context) is that I am no authority. I speak from the pain and suffering I've seen of rape victims, of my gradmother's holocaust memories, of those who have loved and lost. Life itself has been my witness of what is "right", "wrong", "awful", "beautiful", "smelly", etc.
    

    
    
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    Rhology And if Joe Doe can say the same thing about his pro-rape view, how do we know which of you is correct?

Obviously, the money quote here is "NOBODY should listen to me!"
If only all atheists were as naively guileless.