Bill Maher, Osama bin Laden, church and state, part 2

Continued from last time, another commenter decided to address me.

Angela:
Ahem.. ok while you two are debating about scripture... I need to call out Rhology about something he said in his first comment.

"Bin Laden's entire mission in life was to destroy America, and he equated America with Christianity, b/c like most Muslims he never took the time to understand America.
The church did not kill OBL; America did. "

Bin Laden's mission wasn't against christianity, it was against America's foreign policy. And saying "like most Muslims he never took the time to understand America." is a generalization that many muslims I know would take offense to. (in fact, i kind of think its the other way around, America never takes the time to understand Muslims) I know Muslims born and raised in this country, does their religion make them less American than you and I? I also know muslims that immigrated here from other countries, and many of them understand and appreciate America more than we do. I just wanted to point out the problems with your broad generalizations.

Also, America may have killed OBL, but the church didnt just breathe a sigh of relief, they definitely celebrated it.



Rhology:
  Hi Angela! Nice talking to you.

--"Bin Laden's mission wasn't against christianity, it was against America's foreign policy."

Yes, but notice how he often referred to "the Crusaders". It is extremely common among Arab Muslims to equate America with "Christian Crusaders", leading to the conflation I mentioned.

--"generalization that many muslims I know would take offense to"

Well, I'm very glad to hear it.
But I've met far more that make that confusion than don't. And I've talked to quite a few.

--"I know Muslims born and raised in this country, does their religion make them less American than you and I?"

Depends totally on whether they want to destroy America and/or bring it under Sharia law. If so, then yes, it does make them less American. Just b/c you don't know any of them doesn't mean that some don't exist.

--"the church didnt just breathe a sigh of relief, they definitely celebrated it."

May I ask you to consider that you accused me of overgeneralisation but then overgeneralised for your own part?
I spoke out of my experience - most Muslims. Most Muslims I've talked to on this issue do make the confusion.
But "the church" in America did so? Some did, some didn't.






Angela:
‎"Yes, but notice how he often referred to "the Crusaders". It is extremely common among Arab Muslims to equate America with "Christian Crusaders", leading to the conflation I mentioned."

This is true that he did bring this up. But wasn't George W. Bush guilty of the same thing? They were Mirror imagining each other. Meaning GWB saw OBL as the evil, and OBL saw GWB as the evil. GWB painted this fight as a "good vs. evil" more than anyone else actually, and probably brought up the crusades, etc just as many times as OBL did. This "not taking the time to understand" goes both ways and the west is just as guilty of it. (and by the way, not all Muslims are Arab, a large percentage are African, Persian, and even African American just for future reference).

"Well, I'm very glad to hear it.
But I've met far more that make that confusion than don't. And I've talked to quite a few."

So I guess you have met all 1.5 BILLION muslims in the world? Ok I guess the fact that you have met a few "confused" Muslims I guess that makes you an authority on the entire Muslim world? My point was that you were generalizing an entire population by saying most of them don't try to understand america, yet you don't seem very generous with trying to understand them either, no? When/where did you come into contact with these "confused" muslims? Was it in a land where we may have killed their family members, or were occupying their country? If so could you blame them? Was it in America? My point is that some context may need to be taken into consideration before you paint all Muslims with the same ugly brush.

"Depends totally on whether they want to destroy America and/or bring it under Sharia law. If so, then yes, it does make them less American. Just b/c you don't know any of them doesn't mean that some don't exist."

As a side note, if you find out what Sharia Law is exactly, can you please let the Muslim world know? They have been trying to figure it out for hundreds of years and haven't really nailed it down yet. I am sure they would be thrilled to know a christian westerner figured it out for them. Oh wait you might be talking about the TALIBAN interpretation of Sharia Law, which by the way, dont make up the majority of Muslims. They make up about (last time I checked) less than a fraction of a percentage point of the entire Muslim population. America is under absolutely no threat of being under this extreme interpretation of Sharia Law.

As far as your other interpretation of what makes a Muslim an American, (since you seem to be the authority on qualifying that), I guess we should take away the citizenship of Westboro Baptist Church too? Since they would like to see America Destroyed? Or any number of other organizations? I will be sure to pass on the word to my progressive muslim friends that you indeed approve of their American-ness, since they dont want America destroyed or dont want to bring it under whatever interpretation of Sharia law you are talking about. (btw I never said extremist muslims dont exist, i was calling you out on your generalization)

"May I ask you to consider that you accused me of overgeneralisation but then overgeneralised for your own part?
I spoke out of my experience - most Muslims. Most Muslims I've talked to on this issue do make the confusion.
But "the church" in America did so? Some did, some didn't."

Yes I can consider that, excuse me let me clarify..YOU seem to be ok with celebrating death, not the whole church perhaps. Maybe I was guilty of the same thing you are doing, seeing the loudest most extreme people on television and thinking they speak for the majority. But can you disagree that by your sentiments you expressed, you seem to fit the bill, no?
When you speak out of experience, it might be good to clarify that it is Muslims YOU have come into contact with (which is an obviously flawed and non scientific poll by the sound of it)..Instead of saying "like most Muslims" The difference is one speaks from a flawed perspective of the Muslim world, and the other is a statement of scientific fact.


Rhology:
 ‎--"But wasn't George W. Bush guilty of the same thing?"

I seem to recall sthg like that from Dubya, yes. He was wrong too. :-)
But OBL has been at his game since before Dubya's presidency.
And no, OBL brought up the Crusades many, many times, and Dubya only a few.

--"GWB painted this fight as a "good vs. evil" more than anyone else actually"

Rightfully so, but that's not the same as "America aka Christendom vs Islam".

--" not all Muslims are Arab"

Which is why I framed my comments very specifically.

--"I guess you have met all 1.5 BILLION muslims in the world?"

Of course not, but I'd wager I've met far more than you. And it means something when so many of them think the same thing, even educated ones.

--"yet you don't seem very generous with trying to understand them either, no?"

I do try to understand them, so I'd appreciate it if you simply ask rather than assume.
That's how I know these things, in fact - I've asked these questions, read the entire Qur'an, gone to the mosque for sermons many times.

--"Was it in a land where we may have killed their family members?"

Even if it had been, it would be irrelevant to the point that equating America with Christianity is factually incorrect.

--"if you find out what Sharia Law is exactly, can you please let the Muslim world know?"

It's Islamic jurisprudence wherein all activities, mosque AND state, are subsumed under Islamic law stemming from Qur'an and Hadith.
It's really not that complicated a definition.

--"TALIBAN interpretation of Sharia Law, which by the way, dont make up the majority of Muslims."

Yes, I know the Taliban is not the majority of Muslims.
However, many Muslims have been Westernised and can't give you a consistent account of their own religion's teaching. You can tell when they outwardly reject the Qur'anic teaching on jihad. There is zero question, none, that jihad = offensive, physical warfare against the infidel, but how many Muslims will acknowledge that? Some surely do so b/c they want to continue their subtle infiltration of other countries. Some don't know and have no idea what the Islamic doctrine of abrogation means and how it relates to this question.
I thank God for this ignorance; if more were in the know, more would be violent jihadists and that's far from what I want to see.

--"America is under absolutely no threat of being under this extreme interpretation of Sharia Law."

You are simply kidding yourself and have uncritically listened to HuffPo and CAIR's propaganda.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/05/sharia-in-american-courts-say-it-aint.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/07/special-report-sharia-comes-to-dearborn.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/06/blog-post.html

Just a few examples.

--"I guess we should take away the citizenship of Westboro Baptist Church too?"

Oh, is there evidence that WBC is actively planning the armed overthrow of the USA? I'd be interested in seeing that evidence, b/c I despise them.
It's not just about "wanting America destroyed". It's "preparing to do so".

--"YOU seem to be ok with celebrating death"

Yes, in some cases, b/c I am answerable to the God of the Bible, not empty modern emotion-driven moralistic platitudes.

--" But can you disagree that by your sentiments you expressed, you seem to fit the bill, no?"

Doubtful. Do you know what I did when I heard OBL was dead?



Angela:
 ‎" seem to recall sthg like that from Dubya, yes. He was wrong too. :-)
But OBL has been at his game since before Dubya's presidency.
And no, OBL brought up the Crusades many, many times, and Dubya only a few. "

I am not sure if I understand your point? You seem to insinuate that Muslims have the market cornered on oversimplification of a region. So just because W did it less often that makes it less of an oversimplification and less wrong?

"Rightfully so, but that's not the same as "America aka Christendom vs Islam"."

Not rightfully. And actually it is the exact same thing.

"Which is why I framed my comments very specifically."

Right. Ill keep that in mind next time someone is talking about extremist muslims in Iran.

"Of course not, but I'd wager I've met far more than you. And it means something when so many of them think the same thing, even educated ones."

Actually I would wager against that. I have visited a Muslim country, my significant other is Muslim, and I have met and spent a lot of time with the Muslim community here.

Regardless of "who has met more muslims", that doesn't excuse your overgeneralization. There is nothing scientific or accurate about your claims.

"I do try to understand them, so I'd appreciate it if you simply ask rather than assume.
That's how I know these things, in fact - I've asked these questions, read the entire Qur'an, gone to the mosque for sermons many times."

Actually I did ask. When I first read that you have had so much first hand contact with your local muslim community I was amazed that you could continue to hold your skewed perception of Muslims in tact, then I remembered the Imam here explaining to me that they often have Christian visitors. And that many times no matter how much warmth and kindness they show, some will never leave with their minds changed. They show up looking for something to dislike, and everyone knows when you do that you will always encounter something. Reminds me of how someone can read the bible looking for things to hate and disagree with and will always find something, probably also goes for the Qur'an.

"Even if it had been, it would be irrelevant to the point that equating America with Christianity is factually incorrect."

It would give your comments some context. Lovely that you didn't answer.

"Yes, I know the Taliban is not the majority of Muslims.
However, many Muslims have been Westernised and can't give you a consistent account of their own religion's teaching. You can tell when they outwardly reject the Qur'anic teaching on jihad. There is zero question, none, that jihad = offensive, physical warfare against the infidel, but how many Muslims will acknowledge that? Some surely do so b/c they want to continue their subtle infiltration of other countries. Some don't know and have no idea what the Islamic doctrine of abrogation means and how it relates to this question.
I thank God for this ignorance; if more were in the know, more would be violent jihadists and that's far from what I want to see."

So basically you are insinuating that the Taliban's interpretation of the Qur'an is more accurate. And that all these progressive peace loving Muslims really are just ignorant to their own religion and just dont understand the message of the prophet? COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE MORE CONDESCENDING? The Taliban's interpretation of the Qur'an is very literal and skewed. Just as the writings from any holy book they need to be taken into context for the times in which they were written. But I will be sure to let my Muslim friends know that I finally met someone who knows their religion better than they do. Wow.

"You are simply kidding yourself and have uncritically listened to HuffPo and CAIR's propaganda."

CAIR is a legitimate and well respected organization btw. And if you expect to be respected during a debate, it would be best to site scholarly objective articles and not articles taken from a paranoid xenophobic conspiracy theory website aimed at converting Muslims. As for the subjects each of those articles addressed and that website takes them out of context and blows them way our of proportion, they can be easily debated about but I think that would probably make this lengthier than it already is. My point is that if you can site something from a respected source. But you know, since it is on the internet it MUST be true.

"Oh, is there evidence that WBC is actively planning the armed overthrow of the USA? I'd be interested in seeing that evidence, b/c I despise them.
It's not just about "wanting America destroyed". It's "preparing to do so". "

Is there evidence of planned armed overthrowing of america by american born muslims? My original question was asking if someones religion made someone born here less of an american. Your answer is obviously yes. Which I think speaks volumes about your character and bias against Muslims.

"Yes, in some cases, b/c I am answerable to the God of the Bible, not empty modern emotion-driven moralistic platitudes."

“Forgive us for the wrong things that we do. Other people do wrong things to us. But we know that we also must forgive those wrong things.

Forgive people when they do wrong things to you. If you forgive them, your Father in heaven will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive them, your Father will not forgive you.”

Matthew 6:12 and Matthew 6:14-15

“Then Peter came to Jesus. ‘Lord, if my brother keeps on hurting me, how many times should I forgive him?’ he asked. ‘Should I forgive him seven times?’

‘No, not just seven times, but forgive him seventy times seven times’, Jesus said.

Matthew 18:20something

Not really very debatable when it comes in the form of red letters.

"Doubtful. Do you know what I did when I heard OBL was dead?"

I didnt claim to know. I only know what you are condoning.

Also:
"It's Islamic jurisprudence wherein all activities, mosque AND state, are subsumed under Islamic law stemming from Qur'an and Hadith.
It's really not that complicated a definition. "

My significant other wanted to thank you for lifting a great burden off his shoulders, he has been trying to pinpoint what exactly Sharia Law is and how it should be interpreted for 33 years but you seemed to have cleared it up for him.
Oversimplify much?




Rhology:
 hi Angela,

--"I am not sure if I understand your point?"

Sorry I wasn't clear.
I'm just saying that OBL conflated America with Xtianity, and that conflation is incorrect.
But in HIS mind, he was ALSO beating down on Xtianity, and that puts him in the camp of enemies of Jesus. When Jesus brings judgment on rabid enemies of His, it gives me, a lover of Jesus, a reason to rejoice.

--"Ill keep that in mind next time someone is talking about extremist muslims in Iran."

Well, do keep it in mind *when appropriate*.
You need to remember that Islam doesn't separate mosque and state like biblical Xtianity does. To them, Islam and the state are inseparable. Thus, Sharia. So you need to take Iran for what it IS, and what it IS is ruled by extremist Islam, at least for the last 30 yrs.

--"Actually I would wager against that. I have visited a Muslim country, my significant other is Muslim, and I have met and spent a lot of time with the Muslim community here."

OK, fair enough.
I have to ask whether you've talked about this issue with very many, though. Maybe you have, but maybe you haven't.
So let me retract the "most Muslims" comment. I should have said "many, many Muslims", not "most". Please accept my apologies for overstating the case.

--"I was amazed that you could continue to hold your skewed perception of Muslims in tac"

Then it's good that you've been exposed to someone who's experienced a different side of worldwide Islam than you. DIversity is helpful.

--"Imam here explaining to me that they often have Christian visitors"

And I'll be going again today. The fact that they let me observe doesn't change anything about what they think.

--"And that many times no matter how much warmth and kindness they show"

They could be lying to me. The Qur'an at minimum allows them to do so, to gain advantage over the infidel.
Also, I have no doubt that SOME are genuine, at least. But that doesn't mean their wrong ideas don't persist.

--"Reminds me of how someone can read the bible looking for things to hate and disagree with and will always find something, probably also goes for the Qur'an. "

And yet the Qur'an objectively contains blanket commands toward violence for Muslims TODAY, and nothing of the kind exists in the Bible.
So yes, what you say is true, but there's also such a thing as a fair reading and what a fair reading means and yields.

--"basically you are insinuating that the Taliban's interpretation of the Qur'an is more accurate"

The part that relates to warfare against infidel, yes. B/c I've read the Qur'an and know the chronological order and what the doctrine of abrogation is and means.

--"And that all these progressive peace loving Muslims really are just ignorant to their own religion "

Yes, quite.
That's no surprise - most Americans are extremely ignorant of the Bible even when they claim to be Xtians.

--"The Taliban's interpretation of the Qur'an is very literal and skewed. "

How do you know?
Please begin by explaining what the doctrine of abrogation is and how you know what chronological order the Surahs of the Qur'an were revealed.

--"I will be sure to let my Muslim friends know that I finally met someone who knows their religion better than they do"

Didn't claim that. I claimed that I have reason to think they're wrong ON THIS ISSUE.
You'll do well to stop putting words in others' mouths. It's as if you're biased and can't listen objectively to what others say to you.

--"CAIR is a legitimate and well respected organization btw"

Dreamer. Their direct connection to Islamic terrorism abroad is documented and beyond question. I'm sorry you're blind to the facts, but I urge you to educate yourself.

--" that website takes them out of context and blows them way our of proportion"

You claimed there was ZERO danger of Sharia. I provide you evidence that there is NOT *ZERO* risk and you answer back.
This would be a great opportunity for you to withdraw your own overgeneralisation.

--" since it is on the internet it MUST be true. "

No one can MAKE you educate yourself. Sad to see wilful ignorance in action, though.

--"Is there evidence of planned armed overthrowing of america by american born muslims?"

Yes.
Taliban John Walker Lindh. Nidal Malik Hassan are two "crazies" that broke out of the mold.
Have you really never looked into this? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

--" My original question was asking if someones religion made someone born here less of an american. Your answer is obviously yes. "

My answer is Yes ***IF THEY PLAN TO OVERTHROW THE COUNTRY***. Why didn't you include that in this comment? Why not fairly represent me?

--"Forgive people when they do wrong things to you."

Yes, ***I*** do.
And the Bible ***also*** mentions rejoicing to some extent in the death of enemies of the faith. It's BOTH.

--"I only know what you are condoning."

And you've given no one any reason to think my condoning is out of step with the Bible. You're free to try again tho.

--"Oversimplify much?"

Glad to hear a naked assertion from some white girl who claims to have a Muslim boyfriend who claims to be in the know. Some evidence would be preferable, though, honestly.