Since I'd say the odds favor his eventual deletion of one of the notable threads in which he amply demonstrates his evil thinking, I'll reproduce it here. First, though, his 13 objections to AHA, which will be followed by rebuttals.
UPDATE: Before the fold, though, I'd like to throw in a sideways sigh toward JD Hall, who refers obliquely to this article in his copy+paste of Wallace's 13 points.
And since JD reads this blog, I will now make another plea to him directly: Jordan, let us be brothers again. You invited me over to your house! You left me alone in your house where I had access to anything I would have wanted to steal or sabotage or whatever you think a dangerous church-hating cultist might do. You called me "closer than a brother" in public not long after, and then less than two months later were tossing me aside in public as a cultist. I guess better a cultist than a jihadist...
AHA Repent
Abolish Human Abortion (AHA) focuses much of its energy on calling churches to repent of “abortion apathy.” It is supposedly not enough for churches to call abortion murder and work for its total elimination; churches are in sin unless they agree with AHA's tactics. It is time AHA is called to repent.
1. If your family is not part of a faithful, visible church, your priority should not be abortion, but getting them in a faithful church (1 Timothy 3:15).
2. If you cannot name the elders to whom you submit (Hebrews 13:17), your priority should be to obey God yourself, rather than seeking excuses not to do so (Matthew 7:5).
3. If you are denouncing churches as guilty of sin without being in covenant with a visible church, you are not a reformer, but a schismatic. Christians are called to avoid you (Titus 3:10).
4. Please stop playing word games (Matthew 5:37). When you are holding signs outside a church accusing them of sin, it is as much a protest as holding signs outside abortion clinics with accusations of sin.
5. Please stop using the horror of abortion to confuse the issue. That is an agreed point with the churches you are protesting; it is your tactics that are the issue.
6. Stop assuming that if people just saw how bad abortion was, they would have to agree with your tactics. Paul Hill used this same approach to ignore criticisms of his shooting abortionists. AHA admits he was wrong on the violence, but uses the same logic to ignore its critics.
7. Please stop demonizing and attacking anyone who disagrees with you. (1 Corinthians 13)
8. Your accusations of “abortion apathy” find no direct support anywhere in the Bible. This “sin” is a perfectionistic implication you draw from unrelated texts.
9. Creating sins over which to accuse others, without clear Scriptural warrant, is Phariseeism (Matthew 15:9).
10. Where in the Old or New Testament do you find anyone attacking churches over “abortion apathy”? You confuse the calls for Israel to use the sword to destroy pagan worship with the church's mandate in the New Testament. You admit that the church's weapons are spiritual, but then hold it to the same immediatism as if they had the sword.
11. Recognize that many of the people who are leading AHA are in rebellion against being accountable to any real church. Don't let them play off your legitimate disgust of abortion to feed your frustration with the church. Perfectionistic schismatics have a long history and will lead you to destruction.
12. If you will not hear any visible church, Jesus says no Christian should count you a brother (Matthew 18:17).
13. AHA needs to stop calling on faithful churches to repent of their made-up sin of “abortion apathy” and repent of their own very real sin of schism.
In answer:
1. Sounds like a good idea in principle. Virtually all abolitionists are part of faithful visible churches or are actively involved trying to help the churches with which they are involved to become faithful.
2. Hebrews 13:17 doesn't have anything to do with elders. Please check the passage and try again.
Also, what is your argument that non-"submission" to elders necessarily entails disobedience to the Scripture? Merely citing Hebrews 13:17 (and twisting it in the process, I might add) is not an argument.
3. Where does the idea of "covenant" with a local church appear in the Scripture?
What is your argument to this effect?
Why can't those outside the visible institution call those inside it to repentance? Does the SOURCE matter or does the MESSAGE matter?
4. It is YOU who are playing word games, for it is up to the person acting to define what he is doing. You don't like what we do so you attach negative-sounding baggage to it. That is disingenuous. It is like an atheist complaining that you do what you do because you "shove religion down others' throats".
5. The issue is our guilt as a nation of silence while child sacrifice continues pretty much unopposed. You dislike our tactics of raising awareness, but your emotional state is not the issue at hand.
6. This doesn't really make sense. What precisely is the objection to the tactics? And we don't make the assumption you said we make. We are trying to obey Eph 5.11 and expose the evil.
7. Where has anyone done that? Have you called them specifically to repentance when they have done so?
Are you not doing that to us right now?
8. So you don't think apathy about rampant sin going on around you is sinful in itself? James 4:10 has nothing to say about it? You don't love others enough to warn them of the wrath to come? Hiding light under bushels? Etc
If it were "perfectionistic", do you mean that we strive to be perfect?
If you mean that we think we are perfect already, then why do we constantly say "repent WITH US"? Why do we rebuke sinless perfectionists when we encounter them?
9. Where have we done that? What examples can you cite?
10. Nobody is attacking churches, so the false premise renders the question invalid.
11. How so? Be specific. Who? How do you know this?
12. Who refuses to hear any visible church? Be specific. How do you know this?
13. AHA is an ideology and ideologies can't "call on" anyone or anything. Agents, like people, do things like that. Ideologies don't.
When you can't even properly categorise the things you're trying to deal with, it gives the reader every reason to dismiss your "points".
The main parts of the thread:
Elizabeth Joy I assemble with the brother in this picture at a visible church in PA.
This entire list is full of slander and things that aren't true.
I can say with certainty they aren't true of this brother or other abolitionists I know and work with.
Jason Wallace I
never said that every AHA supporter was outside a visible church. It
is clear that some are not. Would you care to specify the "slander"
that "fills" the list? Is your friend really not protesting? Does the
AHA not call churches to repent of "abortion
apathy"? I note that you use the word "assemble;" do you have specific
elders to whom you submit? Is there a specific church to which you
have covenanted to listen?
Elizabeth Joy //I
never said that every AHA supporter was outside a visible church.// it
would seem you purport that the ideology leads to this?
//It is clear that some are not.// can you name names, sir? I am aware of no abolitionists who are not in fellowship with the church.
//Would you care to specify the "slander" that "fills" the list? // sure, but that would take a seperate comment, so please bear with me, brother, as I go over the list more thoroughly in another comment.
//Is your friend really not protesting?//
No he is not, he is seeking to encourage, rebuke, exhort, his brothers and sisters in Christ. Something he does just as regularly within our little assembly also. However, he is not sent outside to do so.
//Does the AHA not call churches to repent of "abortion apathy"?//
Abolitionists do. Including myself.
There is no such thing as "The AHA." Abolish Human Abortion is an ideology. If you'd like more information on the 5 tenets and 2 modes of the ideology that abolitionists adopt, I'd be glad to point you in that direction, brother.
:)
//I note that you use the word "assemble;" do you have specific elders to whom you submit? Is there a specific church to which you have covenanted to listen?//
Yes, there are elders who guide and lead and teach us. No, there is no membership roll. The covenant we enter into upon salvation is sufficient for our little assembly.
You can learn more about our assembly here:
http://www.independencerbc.org/
//It is clear that some are not.// can you name names, sir? I am aware of no abolitionists who are not in fellowship with the church.
//Would you care to specify the "slander" that "fills" the list? // sure, but that would take a seperate comment, so please bear with me, brother, as I go over the list more thoroughly in another comment.
//Is your friend really not protesting?//
No he is not, he is seeking to encourage, rebuke, exhort, his brothers and sisters in Christ. Something he does just as regularly within our little assembly also. However, he is not sent outside to do so.
//Does the AHA not call churches to repent of "abortion apathy"?//
Abolitionists do. Including myself.
There is no such thing as "The AHA." Abolish Human Abortion is an ideology. If you'd like more information on the 5 tenets and 2 modes of the ideology that abolitionists adopt, I'd be glad to point you in that direction, brother.
:)//I note that you use the word "assemble;" do you have specific elders to whom you submit? Is there a specific church to which you have covenanted to listen?//
Yes, there are elders who guide and lead and teach us. No, there is no membership roll. The covenant we enter into upon salvation is sufficient for our little assembly.
You can learn more about our assembly here:
http://www.independencerbc.org/
The Independence Reformed Bible Church is located in Denver, PA, in Lancaster County.
independencerbc.org
Jason Wallace Elizabeth Joy
I have no time for the word games that seem to define your
movement/ideology or whatever you want to call it. AHA is a very clever
game: it attacks faithful churches, but then tries to define itself in a
way that no one can respond. Is Independence
Reformed Bible Church declaring churches outside which your folks are
protesting (or whatever you want to call it) guilty of "abortion
apathy"? If not, why not?
Elizabeth Joy Our
church is not entirely made up of abolitionists. There are those who
attend who are either not yet familiar with the ideology, or becoming
familiar.
There are also many in our church who have stood outside of child sacrifice centers, schools, universities, and events like WinterJam, and G3. I have stood outside of churches calling them to repent, as has my husband.
So yes, I'd say our elders are on board with the cry of "Church repent!" It is something ongoing in our own little assembly also. Church repent doesn't always include signs outside of churches, it can and is done in a variety of ways by a variety of abolitionists.
If you wonder what our elders think on this issue, I'd strongly urge you to contact them and speak with them, I know they'd be glad to discuss this with you.
There are also many in our church who have stood outside of child sacrifice centers, schools, universities, and events like WinterJam, and G3. I have stood outside of churches calling them to repent, as has my husband.
So yes, I'd say our elders are on board with the cry of "Church repent!" It is something ongoing in our own little assembly also. Church repent doesn't always include signs outside of churches, it can and is done in a variety of ways by a variety of abolitionists.
If you wonder what our elders think on this issue, I'd strongly urge you to contact them and speak with them, I know they'd be glad to discuss this with you.
Elizabeth Joy Also,
Jason, I am not sure what word games you are referring to? I am being
very open and honest with you, a complete stranger, because I wish to
reason with you.
I am careful to say exactly what I mean, yes. But there are no "word games" here.
I am careful to say exactly what I mean, yes. But there are no "word games" here.
Jason Wallace AHA
sells t-shirts and plasters their logo across the Internet, but if any
criticism is offered, it's only an ideology? That's a word game.
Accusing churches of sin with signs outside their services is
protesting, even if you want to call it basket-weaving.
Elizabeth Joy I
don't follow, Jason? Isn't the church made up of different parts? Does
every single one need to be standing outside of churches with signs?
Elizabeth Joy Abolish human abortion doesn't sell t shirts. AHAgear does. They are a business, and not abolish human abortion.
Jason Wallace More games. . .
Elizabeth Joy I am trying to be honest and open, Jason, not seeking to play games.
I think you misunderstand abolitionism, and I'd be glad to explain it to you.
I think you misunderstand abolitionism, and I'd be glad to explain it to you.
Jason Wallace I
understand your movement. Behind all the evasions, AHA is at war with
the church. If you really believe in what you are doing, stop playing
games, come out into the open, and accept criticism for it.
Elizabeth Joy Jason,
I don't understand what you object to? I have demonstrated that your
accusations of abolitionists not being a part of the church are untrue.
I believe I have openly and honestly demonstrated this in the case of myself, and my brother in the photo.
So why do you keep up the accusations with his picture?
I believe I have openly and honestly demonstrated this in the case of myself, and my brother in the photo.
So why do you keep up the accusations with his picture?
Elizabeth Joy I
am out in the open. I have exposed my church, my elders, my family, and
myself to your scrutiny. Yet you somehow still find them wanting. But
under what grounds?
Do you find me to be in sin, Jason?
Do you find me to be in sin, Jason?
Jason Wallace You
have not demonstrated anything wrong in what I said. I said "IF your
family is not in in a visible church. . ." There are AHA
activists/members/abolitionists who are outside any church and vocal
about it. Yes, you are in sin by protesting churches
(or whatever you want to call your activities with signs). You are
accusing them of sin outside any court of the church. You are not
following Matthew 18; you are acting as a pope, denouncing them without
the benefit of any court to hear their defense. You've not taken this
to your elders for them to bring the charge publicly as a body; you are
acting as a schismatic. My hope is that the churches you have been
protesting will charge you at your church and call on them to adjudicate
the matter. My hope is that they will follow Matthew 18 and call you
to repentance and work for the peace of Christ's church. My prayer is
that you will also hear them.
Toby Harmon Jason,
repeating that Elizabeth is playing word games, when she is in fact not
doing so, doesn't substantiate your repeated assertions. Now it may be
because you're truly ignorant of understanding what ahagear is (a URL of
Abortion Abolition Resources which is
an LLC) and how it is not AHA. AHA is a symbol representing a set of
ideas (an ideology), much like TULIP is an acronym representing a set of
theological ideas. But it would be really ignorant or just plain dumb
to say that Calvinism was an organization because there was a website
URL that that had the word TULIP in it and sold shirts with Cavlins face
on them.
Toby Harmon But, what it wouldn't be is word games.
Elizabeth Joy Jason, how do you know I haven't followed Matthew 18?
How do you know I am in sin simply because I stood outside of a church building and handed out literature?
How do you know I am in sin simply because I stood outside of a church building and handed out literature?
Toby Harmon Jason, you've not demonstrated why any of your assertions should be taken seriously at all.
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon
A protest is a protest, even if you don't like the term. Stop trying
to redefine it. AHA is organized enough to do a number of things in
community, but it melts into an ideology whenever anyone criticizes
something someone does in its name. That seems like a game. Either it
is a substantive movement or its not. It sure seems like one to anyone
on the outside.
Jason Wallace Elizabeth Joy What court is hearing your charges of sin?
Elizabeth Joy You have set yourself up here, as judge and jury, it seems. 
:(
:(
Jason Wallace Elizabeth Joy You're the one claiming that you can bring charges of sin outside any court of the church.
Elizabeth Joy Calling
brothers and sisters in Christ to love their neighbor and to obey
Christ is no different than what some may say from a pulpit, or in a
Sunday school class, or church conference, or a radio show, or while
writing a book.
How is it that it becomes sin on the sidewalk?
How is it that it becomes sin on the sidewalk?
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace
it's a movement yes, in the sense that individuals are united together
under Christ with a biblical understanding and set of ideas on how we
ought to faithfully oppose child sacrifice. These individuals are
members of the body and Bride of Christ
and each of them assemble locally with other members of the body and
Bride of Christ in different visible manifestations. These individuals
are in constant communication with one another to organize efforts to
wake up our sleeping culture (which includes the Christians in our
culture) to repent of either the practice or toleration of
child-sacrifice.) This reality does not make AHA an organization.
Toby Harmon Jason, you are bringing charges right now, on Facebook, outside of any church court
Elizabeth Joy And how is it you can call Abolitionists to repent... of calling the church to repent?
What makes your Facebook post legitimate, and our literature/signs, not legitimate?
What makes your Facebook post legitimate, and our literature/signs, not legitimate?
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace hypocrisy much sir?
Toby Harmon It appears you do not meet your own extra-biblical standard sir.
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon
In terms of AHA, to whom do I bring charges? You say it's an ideology.
As far as Elizabeth, she asked me if I thought she was in sin. I
answered her question and laid out how it should be addressed.
Toby Harmon I guess Jason thinks that the Little Caesars sign holder is protesting Little Caesars pizza?
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon Please stop your insults. That is nothing like what I was saying.
Toby Harmon If
you have charges against me, then tell me my sin. If I'm in sin and
won't Repent, bring witnesses to confirm all the facts. If they are
confirmed and I still won't Repent, bring it to other Christians who
know me, bring it to local folks I meet with T T. Russell Hunter Josh Jon Malone Aaron Hoffman of those who aren't local but who hold me equally accountable Todd M Bullis Michael Graves Alan Maricle Michael Mike Gulley
all men of God who I trust and who have my ear. All men who know
Christ, understand His word, are filled with the Spirit and have proven
themselves mature in the faith. Any of them can hold me accountable for
sin. Any of them can mark me out as an unrepentant sinner and warn
others to disfellowship from me.
Jason Wallace I'm
sick and tired of AHA folks accusing others of sin and hypocrisy, but
then playing the victim whenever anyone responds. You started this, and
as a faithful shepherd, I have responded.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace apparently you think holding signs outside a building necessarily equals protest.
T. Russell Hunter Jason, what are your charges against Toby? I will hear them.
Toby Harmon You're the only one being hypocritical here sir. Either meet your own standard or stop talking.
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon When they accuse the church inside of SIN? Yes!
Elizabeth Joy Jason,
no, sir, I beg to differ. You wrote the above status, accusing the
brother in the picture, and other abolitionists of hating the church,
and abandoning her.
This is not so, sir. I don't understand how you are "faithful" in calling us to repent, and yet we are in sin?
This is not so, sir. I don't understand how you are "faithful" in calling us to repent, and yet we are in sin?
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon
You ignore what I say and seek to twist it to your own purposes.
You're being dishonest, and I've wasted enough time dealing with you.
Toby Harmon If
you don't think The Church is guilty while millions are murdered every
year in the midst of 100,000s of bible believing and teaching local
churches then I don't know what else to say to you sir
Elizabeth Joy These brothers may also hear any accusations against me. They were present when I stood outside of a church building.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace prove it, don't just assert it. That's all you've done in this entire thread.
Jason Wallace Elizabeth Joy
You're also twisting my words. I pointed out that his sign was a
contradiction, and he was attacking the church he was protesting.
T. Russell Hunter What
would it look like for an ideology to exist and be represented by a
symbol and for the people who held to that ideology to use the symbol
that represented it?
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon I need to follow Titus 3:10 with you. It's clear that no proof will ever convince you. My hands are clean.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace
more assertions. "Attacking" "protesting." You haven't demonstrated at
all how these descriptors are an accurate reflection of his actions.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace point to any proof you've given if anything you've said here.
Elizabeth Joy He was standing outside of the G3 conference in this picture, seeking to exhort brothers and sisters to love rheir neighbor.
This is not a protest. It is what is commanded in scripture. Exhortation.
This is not a protest. It is what is commanded in scripture. Exhortation.
Jason Wallace Elizabeth Joy This is not exhortation. It is an accusation of sin to which no court is offered for defense.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace what court are you accusing us before here?
Jason Wallace Toby Harmon To what court can you bring an "Ideology"? You can't have it both ways.
Elizabeth Joy Jason, there has been a consistent distinction in this thread between "ideology" and "abolitionists."
I assume, this is something not beyond your understanding.
You can, and have accused this abolitionist.
Why wiggle out now, sir?
Now you are playing word games.
I assume, this is something not beyond your understanding.
You can, and have accused this abolitionist.
Why wiggle out now, sir?
Now you are playing word games.
Toby Harmon Jason Wallace
you are accusing, according to your false presupposition "AHA The
Organization" before a fb court (which you wouldn't find acceptable as
any kind of court I'm guessing), so I am arguing according to your
presuppositions. You can bring the
ideology to the court of Scripture and measure those ideas against it
and hold fast to that which is good. You can bring individual
Abolitionists to a court of their peers.
Tim Bushong "I'm sick and tired of AHA folks accusing others of sin and hypocrisy, but then playing the victim whenever anyone responds."
Jason Wallace -- That is exactly what they have been doing, and it's a childish and immature attempt to evade the reasons why what they do is schismatic. Excellent, brother.
Jason Wallace -- That is exactly what they have been doing, and it's a childish and immature attempt to evade the reasons why what they do is schismatic. Excellent, brother.
Tim Bushong Toby Harmon
No, you don't. I just read through this entire conversation, and the
fallacies coming from your end are demonstrably and truly fallacious. It
really is (as brother Jason Wallace said waaaaay up there) "word games."
Stop pretending to be an Elijah or a Jeremiah. Methodology doesn't equal intent or result.
Stop pretending to be an Elijah or a Jeremiah. Methodology doesn't equal intent or result.
No comments:
Post a Comment
When posting anonymously, please, just pick a name and stick with it. Not "Anonymous". At minimum, "Anonymous1", just for identification.