Shantal:
Loool! Is jesus is the beginning and is the end? I dnt think so!
bcoz if jesus propesied to die for the sin of mankind, since in the beggining, why that jesus cried and shows his little disappointment! MY GOD! MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME? If a son and the father had an agreement that jesus, will come to die for the sins of mankind since the creation of the world. Why jesus didnt come b4 the prophets, noah or moses? Why it wasn't jesus who bring the law? Why moses?
Me:
All these "why" questions show that you are a man-centered idolater, Shantal. You think God has some obligation to explain Himself to you?
Shantal:
lol hahaha! God and jesus made an agreement since the beggining that jesus will come to die for the sin of mankind. when the time came, jesus cried out with aloud voices saying MY GOD, MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME? He is disappointed. Hahaha Rhology he dont need to explain himself to me, i know already that jesus was'nt God. Bcoz God would never forsaked His chosen one. God would never let His chosen one to hurt or even died without glory. Remember moses? How God protect Him and people of israel from the wickedness of pharaoh. Then now u r telling me that jesus is God? Or son of God to die for the sinners, who disbelieve him, who mocked him, and killed him. Where in OT that God humble Himself? Clearly we see that God would never humble himself, to kill himself for the sinners. Read again Exodus God said, "FOR I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM A JEALOUS GOD, PUNISHING THE OFFSPRING OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, AND SHOWING MERCY TO THOUSANDS OF THOSE LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. is this God and jesus r one?
Me:
Do you mean *The Father* and Jesus? If so, that's correct.
I know that you don't really care about the truth, Shantal, but for the benefit of others, when Jesus cried out on the cross, He was quoting Psalm 22. Read it, I recommend it. It's a messianic psalm. He was expressing that His mission was complete, that He had atoned for the sin of His people.
And if God doesn't forsake his holy ones in Islam, why did he let Mohammed die from poison from a Jewish woman? Your arguments are foolish. I hope you will repent someday soon.
God did not humble HImself in the OT, that's the point. He did in the NEW Testament - read Philippians 2.
And yes, Jesus is God. He punishes ALL sin. The question is simple: Will Jesus bear your punishment and atone for your sin, or will YOU bear your punishment?
We've alraedy talked about that. You think Allah ignores sin. I'm telling you God does not ignore even one sin, not even the smallest. It will ALL be punished.
Shantal:
so why then he dies for forgiveness of sin? Lol! U all confusing ur ownself, and just pretending, and accept to be hypocrite!!! Lol and for ur info, he didn't die same time the woman give him poison unless the revelation finished and then he died natural death. Moses died natural death. And only jesus not! And dnt u not understand the verse? I will repeat it for you, "For I, the Lord your God, am a JEALOUS GOD, PUNISHING THE OFFSPRING OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, and showing MERCY to thousands of those that love me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Meaning GOD SHOWS HIS MERCY ONLY TO THOSE WHO LOVE GOD AND FOR THOSE WHO OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS in other words the believers, the obedient. He will punish the nonbelievers, and the disobedient..
but NT God is not like that! NT GOD forgive people sin, He ignore the sinners, those who disbelieve, and those who disobeyed... in other words christianity is giving the sinners the chance to commit more sin as long as people believe that jesus died for them.
Me:
You might have a point if there weren't thousands of other verses in the Bible, Shantal. As it is, you pose a very shallow objection. Would it be so hard to think a little?
The OT God forgave ppl too. Because of the atonement. You are quite ignorant of the Bible. I recommend you read it
Shantal:
Thats it! Rhology, u get the point. OT God forgive individual people, he forgive those who r sincirely repented, those who ask for forgiveness. Not to those who disbelieve or who disobeyed... but NT God forgive all the world sin. Means whether obeyers and disobeyers, believers and disbelievers(idolaters) r forgiven. Is'nt it unfair for those who Godfearing people those who obey God to forgive those who intentionally did sin?
Me:
God in the OT forgave ppl BECAUSE OF FUTURE ATONEMENT. Read Hebrews.
And in the NT God specifies that He will forgive THE REPENTANT. Those who do not repent will have zero forgiveness. They will have wrath and anger.
You know, Alan, I've read that 22nd Psalm. I read it, and I read it and I read it.
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. The Psalm is in the first person. Is the person speaking supposed to be Jesus?
Matthew Henry nails it.
ReplyDeleteThe Spirit of Christ, which was in the prophets, testifies in this psalm, as clearly and fully as any where in all the Old Testament, "the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow’’ (1 Pt. 1:11); of him, no doubt, David here speaks, and not of himself, or any other man. Much of it is expressly applied to Christ in the New Testament, all of it may be applied to him, and some of it must be understood of him only. The providences of God concerning David were so very extraordinary that we may suppose there were some wise and good men who then could not but look upon him as a figure of him that was to come. But the composition of his psalms especially, in which he found himself wonderfully carried out by the spirit of prophecy far beyond his own thought and intention, was (we may suppose) an abundant satisfaction to himself that he was not only a father of the Messiah, but a figure of him.
Etc...
Well, there are a lot of words in the MH commentary, but can you give me a clear and simple answer to the question? Is the person speaking supposed to be Jesus?
ReplyDeleteIt appears that Matthew Henry says no, but to be honest, I'm not sure I follow what Henry is saying. There seems to be a certain amount of trying to cram a round peg into a square hole. So it goes with allegedly prophetic words.
Again, much of it is expressly applied to Christ in the New Testament, all of it may be applied to him, and some of it must be understood of him only.
ReplyDeleteThe psalter is speaking as a type of the Messiah, and some of the typology is fulfilled in Jesus' coming, whereas some of it is better applicable to the psalter's personal situation. The two can also overlap.
Ok, I think I'm beginning to see what you're driving at here.
ReplyDeleteHowever, let's be more specific. In Verses 1 through 22, when the first pronouns I and me are used, in which cases is the speaker the psalter, in which cases is the speaker Jesus and in which cases is the speaker both the psalter and Jesus, that is, in which cases do we have an overlap? For example, who is saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Sorry, old boy, but this doesn't look like a messianic prophecy at all.
ReplyDeleteIn the first twenty verses or so, we have an earthly king figure (maybe David, maybe a later Judean king) lamenting his miserable state. Surely God would never say My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” The speaker in this psalm is an ordinary mortal human, and a very depressed and despairing human at that. Things are really bad, and the speaker is rapidly losing all hope.
Note that the voice in the psalm is first person singular and the speaker is describing things that are occurring in the present tense, not the future tense. The speaker doesn’t say “many bulls will surround him; strong bulls of Bashan will encircle him. “ No, it’s “many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.” Not a prophecy. Present tense.
The speaker does rally a bit at the end and says that Yahweh will eventually make it all better. However, there’s nothing here about Yahweh sending a specific messiah figure to earth to set things right. Instead, as in most of the OT, Yahweh is just going to do this himself.
Finally, you may notice that the prophecy about what Yahweh (not the messiah) will do has yet to be fulfilled. The poor of the earth are not eating and being satisfied. All of the families of the nations have not bowed down to Yahweh.
It seems that this is much more likely to be a psalm written by a Jew facing hard times as the Judean kingdom collapses around him. He’s hoping that if the people just keep the faith, maybe Yahweh will save their behinds. Note the phrases “all you descendants of Jacob, honor him; revere him, all you descendants of Israel.” This is a message for aimed at the Jews of the collapsing Judean state. Of course, Yahweh didn’t save the Jews. Later, the early Christians would coop this Psalm for their own uses, but it’s a square peg, round hole effort.