A convo on abortion and general Christian ethics

Mac
If I performed breast exams to screen for cancer for free, and I also murdered small children, would you support me with your donations? Susan G. Komen would.



Mac
 http://ww5.komen.org/Content.aspx?id=16162


Me
 https://twitter.com/#!/Rhology/status/121325207481876480  ‎@LarryFitzgerald FYI Susan Komen funds Planned Parenthood. :-( http://t.co/JH6l9Xfl


Mac
 http://liveaction.org/blog/planned-parenthood-ceos-false-mammogram-claim-exposed/


Mac
 I guess I should.change the quote to "if I claimed to provide breast exams..."


BC
 perspective. As long as it is kept quiet the part about you murdering babies, the public will choose to overlook it. That and as long as you claim that the exams are the central part of what you do and that killing babies is just a small percentage of what you do (kind of like a side business)


Danz
 With this line of thinking I fear one would have to make a very tough decision. You guys are going to go crazy, move up into the mountains in isolation if you do not want to contribute to evil. Actually even if you did isolate yourself you would still be in some way contributing to evil. Don't you guys pay taxes to the US government? If yes, you are contributing to all their evils. Every time you spend a dollar, part of your taxes go to doing evil. (for a good cause of course.) You support the tobacco industry everytime you support those who sell tobacco, which is every gas station in America. SO what do you do? Stop buying gas? And don't even think about the gas and it's evils. Maybe we should stop using gas. My point is this: Either way you will be supporting that guy killing babies, as long as he does breast exams. For stopping the breast exams would be evil in another way. It's like hitting your head on a wall, which I've almost tried a few times.


Mac
 except for the fact.that from what I have.read, planned parenthood just pretended to do mammograms, and there are other places to go and get them that dont murder children.


Me
 Correct. We can't avoid indirectly contributing to evil, can't avoid paying taxes. We are in fact commanded to pay taxes, and that to an evil government, at least twice in the New Testament!
We are also encouraged to be wise and not participate in evil when we don't have to. Nobody has to give money to Susan Komen. If you want to help women and cancer, give money to someone who is not into dismembering babies.


Danz
 So Rhology, the Bible says you must pay your taxes. So would you say the American Revolution That was based on the refusal to pay taxes to England, a bad thing and violation against God's law? So basically the American Independence is forged in disobedience to the Bible. Would you agree to that? Furthermore, if you don't support Susan Komen, you'll just be supporting someone who supports other evils by shopping at Walmart or buying from McDonalds, two of the biggest exploitative capitalist corporations in the world. Surly these evils are as valuable. My point is, there is no way around it unless you make a TRUE commitment to be a weirdo. Last thing about the taxes and government thing, if you were German during the killing of the jews, would you disassociate yourself with the German government or follow the Bible rule to submit yourself to authority for HE is the one who establishes all authorities. (a mind twister in itself since many authorities are established through revolution and in direct violation to that rule.) Anyways, it's either we agree that the Bible standards are too high for us, or we agree that we are falling way under par to the expectations of Christ.


Me
 Hi Dan!

I think the justifiability of the AmRev is an open question. So yes, it's definitely possible that American independence is forged in disobedience. I'm not sure what the relevance is, though.

Yes, WalMart does bad things, but pretty much any grocer does, and I have to buy groceries.
Besides, you don't solve this question by what's known as a "tu quoque" - saying "you do bad stuff too!"
You solve it by saying "OK, I'll stop doing the bad thing you've identified insofar as it lies within my ability."
So, to be reasonable, you need to NOT say the former. You need to say the latter.

No, I would not support an evil gov't that was murdering Jews. There are most certainly grades of evil, and not accepting mass murder is more important than not accepting submission to the gov't.

I agree that we are falling way under par to the expectations of Christ. Two things:
1) That does not mean that we have the right to ignore His expectations.
2) Since you have fallen short, what is the answer? Are you not guilty? Does Jesus ignore guilt?
(I'm not disclaiming guilt. I'm asking what YOUR answer is.)


Danz
 Hi Rhology, my answer would be to be real with ourselves and honest with each other. No hypocrisy. I agree however, that the solution it to stop doing bad. But we need to understand that this will require extreme measures.
Why? Because the level of evil has reach an extreme measure. You say you have to buy groceries. No you don't. You can grow your own food. Yes, your diet would be much different but there are other ways. I have a friend in Denver who gets all his food from dumpsters. Near expired canned food mostly. And on my last visit he fed me dumpster food because the thinks it's stupid to pay for food when so much is wasting. That is an extreme measure based on a belief.
Yes, we fall short, but are we even trying to reach a certain point. You don't HAVE to wear exploitation clothing. But it is easy to do so. Again you can find clothes that are not based on exploitation or you can make your own also. But then you would have to sacrifice name brands. Are you willing to do this to get closer to the standard of Christ?
Last think, the relevance of the AmRev is that it seems you are willing to justify Biblical disobedience in certain cases. For example, it is less bad to not accept submission to govt. (even though this is a direct order from God), than to support the govt in killing Jews. But then if your government was killing Arabs on the other side of the globe, it might not be so bad. Since surely those Arabs are in disobedience, we like to say.
I feel like I'm going in circles. If you believe the AmRev was done against GOD's will, would you say it shouldn't have been done? That it was wrong for happening and did not have GOD's blessing? And as the Bible teaches we must repent for our sins and even work to repay our debts. I think you see where I'm going? Do you believe in reparations for victims of a crime of some sort, or punishment for the aggressors? do you think the American Government should have to pay for it's crimes or get a free pass. And should the victims receive anything for their pain?
All these questions play into the honesty and fairness that the Bible teaches. If you are truly advocating for Christ and his teachings you will obviously be encouraging things that for sure are not in the general interest of the American people. But those are the extreme measures I am talking about.



Me
 Tell you what, we can debate about the merits of buying groceries from big companies later.
I would hope we could at least agree that we shouldn't give money to an org that intentionally gives money to dismembering babies. It's not that hard, and it's not very complext either.

As for clothing, all of mine is either inherited from my brothers or is bought at the thrift store. I can guarantee I'm not contributing to "exploitation". I also lack the skills to sew and weave.

Be that as it may, I didn't see you answer my big questions there at the end. I would really like to ask you to answer them. They're extremely important.

--"if your government was killing Arabs on the other side of the globe, it might not be so bad"

What did I say that gave you the impression that I support the US' involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan? And Libya? And Uganda? And Pakistan? And on and on...

--"If you believe the AmRev was done against GOD's will, would you say it shouldn't have been done?"

When I said I think the justifiability of the AmRev is an open question, I meant precisely what I said.

--"That it was wrong for happening and did not have GOD's blessing?"

That's far too simplistic. Not everyone does things for the same reasons, and several 100s of 1000s of ppl were involved in the AmRev.

--"do you think the American Government should have to pay for it's crimes or get a free pass."

I'm unsure how a government would pay for crimes.

--"If you are truly advocating for Christ and his teachings you will obviously be encouraging things that for sure are not in the general interest of the American people."

Obeying God is always in the best interest of people. You sort of got confused there at the end, bringing up a variety of things that are not very relevant. Could you please answer my main two challenges from last comment?



Mac
Danz, how much dumpster food would be available if everybody ate it? How much time would one have to grow all their food, work full time, raise a family etc. Should I quit my job and ignore my family in order to grow all my own food? Where would I grow it after my house was foreclosed upon?



Danz
 Ok the two main questions:
1. Are you not guilty? and 2. Does Jesus ignore guilt?
1. when you say YOU do you mean ME personally or us in general? If me, Yes. if in general, HELL YEAH! As far as the Bible standards we are all guilty. 2. Jesus does not ignore guilt. But I am hoping that he is understanding.

Yes, i think it is best to not give money to an organization that is doing wrong.
The skills to sew and weave can be taught, learned and improved a pond.
I assume you support US wars because your taxes finances it. And I do know if you are in a movement to end the wars.
Open ended questions need addressed.
100 or 1000s of people were involved in the AmRev just like millions are involved in abortions or the slave trade. Everyone has their reasons but bottom line is that it is wrong or it is right. Not to mention the killings.
Governments can pay for their crimes through reparations to the victims or if they were killed, the family of the victims. They can be punished by not being allowed to be part of different international communities or treaties. Embargos is another way. See Cuba.
The part you got confused about states that it is hard to be pro-Christ and Pro-America at the same time. just like Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Christ.



Danz
 Mac where there is a will there is a way. you wouldn't be the first to live like this. If you are more worried about foreclosing homes than GOD's purity, than yes, you will have a dillema.



Mac
 The Bible doesn't tell me I can't own a home, shop at the market, or that I have to eat dumpster food to be pure, I merely have to put faith in Christ as Lord and Savoir and I am positionally as pure as He. It doesn't matter which Country I become a part of, they are all filled with wicked people and corrupt government. We are to be in the world but not of it. We are certainly not to become Monks. We are to live a Christ like as we can in the midst of wickedness and spread the gospel while also attempting to bring justice into unjust situations. People at our church regularly boycott companies such as Abercrombie and Fitch and others that are immoral in many ways, but there is no way you can avoid association with every evil company. However, it is very simple and clear cut for me, that if you are asking for charity money to give to an organization that murders innocent children, that would certainly be an organization I would want to avoid.



Danz
 Yes, we all agree that we want to not only avoid baby killing companies but encourage our friends to avoid them as well, speak out against them, and do everything in your power legally to shut them down.
The Bible doesn't say not to own a home, nor does it say you must own a home. But it clearly says not to associate yourselves with evil, seek justice and depend the oppressed. How are you defending the oppressed if you are financing, supporting, or being silent about the oppressor. We know what Defend means. It means to deny access, stop, prevent, etc. Owning a home is secondary to God's commandments, I would imagine. The Bible says if your eye is causing you to sin, it is better to cut it off. I would imagine that if your house is causing you to associate or support evil, which is clearly a sin, than it might be better to burn it down. And wait for your golden mansion in heaven. Merely putting faith in Christ as Lord is not enough and I think You know this Mac. If not the bible would be a lot shorter. Live like Christ and spread the gospel. This is the same Christ who took 3 years out of his life to go walk around doing just that. He was not worried about his mortgage or his job at that time. The same Christ who had to go borrow a donkey (I'm assuming he couldn't pay for it) to make his grand entrance. The same Christ who never asked us to have nice highways, big air conditioned houses, or nice cars. If you want to be like Christ these things will not be a priority to us. But we have the choice to have these things, and I think it's best to have things that help you live more comfortably. But you may have to sacrifice them and things of the world, extreme measures, if you want to do more than just have faith. And yes He expects more out of us then just belief. But that is the first step.



Mac
 Yes, If Christ called me to sacrifice My house for His Kingdom then I would be willing, however, my house can also be used for service in His Kingdom as well. There is really no possible way to disassociate in every way from evil, we live in a evil world. Komen is giving money to an organization who purposely, proudly and unashamedly murders babies to make it's profit. It not only does this thing but encourages women to continue to do it as if it is a good and honorable thing to do.


Danz
 I think we agree on that.


Me
 ‎--"But it clearly says not to associate yourselves with evil, seek justice and depend the oppressed. How are you defending the oppressed if you are financing, supporting, or being silent about the oppressor."

And it said to pay taxes to the gov't, which at the time of writing was Rome, who was persecuting and murdering Christians. That is the worst crime anyone could commit, and the NT tells us to pay taxes to that gov't, for it is instituted by God.

--"Merely putting faith in Christ as Lord is not enough and I think You know this Mac."

This assertion needs some supporting biblical exegesis. How do you know this is true? And what do you mean by "not enough"? Not enough for what purpose and end?

--"The same Christ who never asked us to have nice highways, big air conditioned houses, or nice cars. "

And the same one who never ripped those of His followers who did have wealth. Rather, He instructed them what to do with what God had given them.

OK, a few other things.
--"The skills to sew and weave can be taught, learned and improved (upon)."

And is that a better use of my time than what I'm doing now? Who are you to judge?
Maybe you have an answer. Do you farm and get from the dumpster ALL your food? If not, how have you quieted your sensitive conscience? Do you make your own clothes? How do you have time to work a job? Do you work for an evil corporation?

Are you proposing that we only do business with people who have no sin? How would you propose we go about doing that? Which people are you referring to? Why did Jesus buy food from sinners?

Finally, you say Jesus does not ignore guilt, but you're HOPING He's understanding. Understanding of what? The fact that you demonstrate you don't care to follow God's law and that you break it every day many times? What's the answer here?



Danz
 ‎@ Rhology, If I understand the timeline correctly, there were no christians yet when Jesus told people to pay taxes. Christians came "after" Christ. I could be wrong about this. It was Judah, and after Jesus Christ came the Christians. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have said to pay taxes to an evil government anyways.
Now, I've been in enough Biblical debates to know that the verses can seem to fight with one another. I show you a verse that says do this, and then you throw a verse at me that says do that. And than you have 1000 different denominations spring up from the unclearity. We know that it is impossible (or insane) for GOD to have instituted every government. Because this becomes subjective to human definition of government and human recognition of government. I can start a government up in the mountains and slowly and illegally start taking over city by city. So at some point people will be under two different governments, and therefore it is impossible to submit to both at the same time. Government is an agreement or understanding of who is in charge. Even if it is not agreed upon. This is a complicated concept.
In 1804 a bunch of African Slaves in Haiti, decided they would take up arms against the French government instituted by GOD, as you say. After winning, and even before, they formed their own government but it was not recognized by the other countries, only to the former slaves. During the 12 years of war, whose government did GOD instill? the French or the Slaves? It's complicated. But GOD told me once that some truths is what we humans decide it is, collectively. Like time and how we define these tricky words, like government, slavery, etc.



Danz
 James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead. Look it up



Danz
 Jesus has nothing against wealth. Unless it comes in the way of his mission and yours. Just like anything else.



Danz
 Who am I to judge? Another loving human being who wants to live in a better world and understands that we are linked. Your actions affect me, as do mine. I am also assuming that you are a believer in Christ and the Bible. So as a friendly human, I am not judging but simply pointing out some things the book you might be following says. Just a reminder and encouragment.



Danz
 I do not eat dumpster food nor live like a monk. I am being totally honest with myself in saying I am not reaching the goal. And I find it very very very difficult in this type of setting of a culture and society. But I am saying IF I were to work in a Christ like manner, this should be my thinking. I think the point is not if you make it to the NBA, but that you did everything in your power to do so. So it's not to be perfect but to do everything physically and mentally/spiritually possible to reach this Godly perfection. But of course no one will. Like no NBA player will have a perfect game with no mistakes at all.

Last thing, about Jesus being understanding. This is not biblical but based on my limited understanding. I hope Jesus will consider the confusion in some minds, the manipulations of others, the not-so-clear communication, the many false prophets so convincing, and the method used to deliver the message. I hope Jesus is loving and understanding enough to understand that some people just don't know. And this does not mean they are rejecting him if they doubt the messenger. Messengers lie all the time. I hope he can understand that some people's introduction to Christ came with guns, rape, and murder. If they reject the word, I hope Jesus is at least considering the situation. I find it very hard to believe, considering some situations that a loving Jesus would send some to Hell after the Hell they just went through. I can just hope. Like I said this is not Biblical my line of thinking.


Me
 ‎--" But it clearly says not to associate yourselves with evil"

And it also allows us (and even tells us sometimes) to buy from sinners.
Buying from != associating with. That might be your problem right there.

--"seek justice and depend the oppressed. "

So why aren't you an abolitionist?

--"How are you defending the oppressed if you are financing, supporting, or being silent about the oppressor."

A man can't do everything. Don't hate because I do something, and it's not the sthg you prefer.
Also, your whole presence on this thread serves as a distraction from the evil that Mac was pointing out. You're not helping anyone here.

--"The Bible says if your eye is causing you to sin, it is better to cut it off"

And in context, that means what?

--"I would imagine that if your house is causing you to associate or support evil, which is clearly a sin, than it might be better to burn it down."

Except that the Bible nowhere begrudges us to own homes that might have been sold to us by sinners.
Somehow they thought there was more to it than you think there is, and that's because you're being too simplistic.

--"This is the same Christ who took 3 years out of his life to go walk around doing just that."

And who stayed with His supporters sometimes who did own houses. Like Matthew. And He didn't rip them for that b/c He recognised there's more to it than your simplistic view.

--"If I understand the timeline correctly, there were no christians yet when Jesus told people to pay taxes. "

The disciples and all Jesus' followers were Christians. This is false.

--" I show you a verse that says do this, and then you throw a verse at me that says do that. "

So the honest thing to do is to take BOTH of them and figure out a theology that allows BOTH of them to say what they say.

--" than you have 1000 different denominations spring up from the unclearity"

The same Bible, but different humans.
I'd say the problem lies with the humans, not the Bible. You're familiar with sin, right?

--"We know that it is impossible (or insane) for GOD to have instituted every government. "

No, we do not know that.
Don't you know that God uses all men, even evil ones, for His purposes?
Read Romans 13, 1 Peter, Obadiah, Nahum, and Habakkuk, please.

--"This is a complicated concept. "

Well, irrelevant. Not so much complicated as irrelevant.

--" James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead"

And what does that have to do with what I asked you?
When's the last time you read James 2:10? And what does it have to do with the question at hand, since you cited James 2?

--"Who am I to judge? Another loving human being who wants to live in a better world and understands that we are linked. Your actions affect me, as do mine. "

Yes, they do. And yet Jesus didn't give you the right to judge me on this basis, even though He knew "we are all linked". I'm sorry, but I'll listen to Jesus and not you.

--"And I find it very very very difficult in this type of setting of a culture and society. "

Not "difficult". It's literally impossible to avoid doing business with sinners.

--" I hope Jesus will consider the confusion in some minds, the manipulations of others, the not-so-clear communication, the many false prophets so convincing, and the method used to deliver the message."

He will also consider all the sin and hypocrisy.
You have no hope by your own works.
Let me give you the answer here - you have nothing to offer God except disgusting, evil, tainted horror. You have a responsibility to repent before Jesus and beg for His mercy.
He will grant it b/c He died on the cross for evildoers like you and me. The diff between us is that I recognise my evil and have repented. You need to repent, and right now. Today is the day of salvation. Repent, be saved, then read the Bible faithfully and obey it. Give a right confession to those who ask, like I just did. I asked and you said you hope Jesus will consider that you have excuses. Dead wrong. You have ZERO excuse. You have only one hope - Jesus' blood and sacrifice. Depend on it, tell others about it. That is the Gospel.

--" Like I said this is not Biblical my line of thinking."

That is very clear - it is not Biblical.
Stop and consider that you know nothing for certain about God outside the Bible. So you need to stop imagining stuff about God and seek the real authentic God. I pray you will, for the wrath stored up against you is great.