Wednesday, January 06, 2016

Debate with Randy Hartinger

At the 2nd so-called Black Mass in OKC, street preachers who tend toward the Pelagian and the abusive (those who I've been told sometimes call themselves the "Pervert Patrol", though that information might be flawed) were present from Tulsa. Brother Toby and I engaged them and asked them to speak with persuasiveness and grace with people, beseeching and pleading with them rather than berating them and calling names. They did not respond well.

I later encountered them outside the Joel Osteen "Night of Hope" event in Tulsa in April 2015. Abolitionists were agitating and proclaiming the Law and Gospel of God there, and these other preachers were also present, again repeating their abusive and mean-spirited behavior that we had previously observed in OKC. I took the opportunity to rebuke them publicly to their face in an interaction behind which I stand 100% as justified and indeed necessary and helpful, given who these men are and how they act.

A few months later I believe I commented on one of their videos either on that channel or on compatriot Chris Hale's channel (now defunct), and they responded, leading to a conversation of some length, (probably on this video, which has been taken down for some reason) during which the interlocutor (Peter Schultz) challenged me to a face-to-face debate, again including childish abusive language like "kiddo" and "we'll give you 30 minutes on Sunday to phone in and teach the church whatever you want to. Game? Doubt it, big boy" and "Had a real good laugh over the hypocrisy you displayed as you yelled 'sinner, sinner, sinner' in that whiney voice of yours".

I of course was more than happy to engage in such a debate. It turns out they didn't mean I'd debate one of them, though. I was put in touch via email with one Randy Hartinger, and figured he was a resident of Tulsa, so we made our plans, exchanged some emails about each other's positions for preparation sake, and then set the time and date.

I arrived at Schultz's house on 04Oct15, to find that I was to debate Hartinger, yes, but in fact via Skype, since he lives in Virginia and "acts as one church" with Schultz's house church via video conferencing. The video had been going for at least three hours when I arrived, so I guess those two churches "act as one" every Sunday or something via teleconference. Oookkaaaayyyy.

At any rate, we proceeded with the debate, and here it is:


To clarify a few things about Schultz's slanted "introduction":
--During the phone call mentioned at the 2:30 minute mark, I'm not at all confident that "he wanted to drop the call like a hot lava rock" is accurate. I was looking for teammates in street evangelism, and when I realised who he was and what he believes and how he acts, I understood it would be bad to continue wasting his time and mine. He makes it sound like I abruptly hung up. Typical.
--At the 3:10 mark, during our Facebook PM conversation, it's true that he said he couldn't meet on a Sunday and I was fine with that. I never offered again because at that point it was becoming clear that he was more than just some lost soul that could possibly be reached with a private conversation. Rather, he is a false teacher and a wolf to be opposed and exposed publicly.
--3:50 mark - I was at JoelO to preach the Gospel. The debate mentioned was part of the reason I was in Tulsa that weekend, but far from the only reason.

Also, for some reason around the 20:30 mark, I said that I did not attend the debate mentioned. I did actually attend most of it, but there was another presentation the night before that I did not attend, and due to my nervousness I experienced a brain fart and confused the two.

During the debate I certainly could have improved here and there but overall I believe it was a good use of time, for the record. Since I definitely do think that men like these give Gospel preachers a bad name, it is good that I can point to my interactions with men like them to show any honest inquirer that we are not on the same team.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

Chris left them in fall.

Rhology said...

Anonymous,

You're saying Chris is no longer part of their fellowship as of Autumn 2015?
In mid-December 2015, he put up the video of the debate that happened on Oct 4, 2015.
What's your source of info?

Anonymous said...

He quit them. Making videos doesn't prove anything.

Rhology said...

True but I'd just wonder why he went ahead and put up the video in that case.
Interesting. Was it because he moved away or something, or was it because he disagreed with them in some way? Do you know why his video channel says "former street preacher" now?

Anonymous said...

Former would mean somebody quit something. I don't know that they still preach or not. Never see them out anymore. At Madonna it was that big boy with a wooden cross. Didn't see the Peter group.

Rhology said...

Yeah that big guy is legit. I know him.

I admit to curiosity as to your source of information.

Anonymous said...

Hartinger and Schultz families both holy living. They won't let Chris in their houses he is up to his nrvk in sin now he's a goner. If anyone says they've seen him with them recent, they probably lying unless they got video

Anonymous said...

Alan, I read your message this morning on You Tube. I left the Schultz fellowship in November. Don't remember a specific date. I'm still a filmmaker though so I don't mind putting out their videos. Even after I parted company with them. It might sound strange but I'm kind of strange I can admit that. LOL!

Rhology said...

Chris Hale,

That's interesting. May I ask why you parted ways with them?
Do you consider yourself a follower of Jesus still? I am simply genuinely curious.

Anonymous said...

Pete Schultz left Randy's group to join Jim Gilles. There was a bunch of scandal I hear. Peter's daughter left him and said she would never be with him again. 2 of Pete's daughters are lesbians who were sleeping in the same bed for years. When this came out, Pete quit being a pastor. The things going on in that house where you debated are scary. They confessed to lying about their marriage for years. Turned out that both Peter and his wife were previously married and his new wife, Heather Schultz now, was his mistress for 2 years. They both left their first marriages living together for years. Jim calls this serial adultery but allows it for them since they are Holiness. They had lied saying they came together after divorces were final. They left the group out of embarrassment afraid it would get out and even took the Virginia church to court but it all became public record then which backfired and became public exhibits and transcripts. Some preachers were even sitting and watching the whole thing and even recorded the whole thing. The judge threw it out for no evidence but Jim Gilles was Pete's witness and some lady married 5 times. Pete had the lady lie and say Randy ordered her husband to murder her. You did right to stand against those adulterers. They are a very evil bunch of people. Be glad you made it out okay and God protected you from them.

Rhology said...

I find it quite plausible to think that Schultz and Hartinger have parted ways, that Schultz' little group has dissolved, and that scary stuff happens in that house.
But as far as the taking the VA church to court, I googled Hartinger, found he lives in Roanoke, and then searched VA court records in both the city and county of Roanoke, finding no court record like what you describe, Anonymous. I'd appreciate some hard facts if you're willing; otherwise, I'll definitely not be able to take what you say here as certain.

Anonymous said...

The court case was in Tulsa County in Oklahoma. They had to fly there for the case. If you look on their it shows up and shows dismissed after two days for insufficient evidence. Peter joined with Jim Gilles now and preaches with him. The Pervert Patrol has perverts in his house and did even when you were there and years before. Be glad you are safe from those adulterers.

Anonymous said...

It was in Oklahoma and not Virginia.

http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&number=PO-2017-2853&cmid=3073392

The whole thing was court reported. Try that link. Larry the Street Preacher said he was there too and several such. The Judge tossed it out after all the lies had zero evidence. I think the Virginia group is a bit strict, but lying and saying he ordered a man to murder somebody and all the other lies is horrible. Stay clear of those Schultz and Gilles guys. They joined with Kelly Cox too. They will lie to cover up their over the top sins and hire attorneys to try and fry you. All it takes is a crooked judge and they can falsely accuse you too. This judge saw through it even with no attorney on the church side. Watch yourself out there, Bro.

Jen4Jesus said...

So this Peter Schultz church is Pervert Patrol? Ironic. I am told the house you debated in is Pastor Tommy McDaniel's daughter's house, Heather McDaniel. Not sure how many marriages this is but this Peter is or was one of them per google. Holiness used to have better stands against adultery marriages. Both were living together while married to others is what is said IDK. BTW I thought Bro Jim Gilles was against adultery but Tommy IS his favorite preacher so I guess that blinds him? jIM preached for us many times. Tommy is a good preacher and was always nice and cant be blamed for his children. His wife was not a nice woman and his sons (dustin and eric mcdaniel) were always on drugs in trouble. But Heather McDAniel is a peace of work. A raunchy little home-wrecker used more than a Walmart restroom. Her goal was apparently to sleep with half the youth group, half of high school, the gym, college. She got pregnant finally and Tommy was so ashamed. She married him after the baby was born (Trey was the guys name)and the church couldn't really cover this up. Tommy said she was back in town and then married again.She corrupted countless young men including my son who regrets ever falling for her loose running around. Raunchiest hustler in 5 counties if you want my opinion. If she is still married to another woman's husband and hasn't repented, she is grotesque. Never knew why so many guys wanted that well worn path. A bunch of nerve to preach about perverts! This brings back many bad memories. yeah pervert patrol.

Beulah B said...

Talk to some former members of the Roanoke church if you want what happened. The whole court thing was a big lie from Peter and Heather Schultz. Shane Willoughby filed a notarized sworn affidavit with the Roanoke courts (now public record) documenting audio recordings where Peter admitted to lying about the entire case against Randy Hartinger and their church. They have audios wear Peter calls himself a chronic habitual liar. Hard to believe Peter but he claimed to Shane the entire court case was a lie that he HAD to do because Randy had information that would jeapordize an upcoming custody trial! They had Jim Gilles and Kristie McCaney get up and lie for them. Jim and Kristi hated Randy so involved themselves. Jim even FB live fed into the court room and upset the judge. Eventually, Jim and Kristi realized they were being used by the Schultzes to shut down Randy and what he know against the Schultzes. Peter and Heather are in a double remarriage with both previous spouses still alive. Peter and Heather lived together for 2 years while married. Jim ignored holiness beliefs against this and helped them but they lost the case as there was no evidence and dismissed. They even tried to get Chris Lepelley from the amish cult church of God of Restoration to be there but his child had heart surgery during the trial. Lies, cults, phony people. None of them have repented except Kristi. The Schultzes are in a Calvinist church now promoting Calvinism. Peter tried to get another court case against Randy using Phillip Lanz (old man in the video). That one was a big lie and failed too. The judge gave the judgment to Randy who can now sue them. Kristi McCaney says she wishes she never got caught up with the Schultzes now and they just used her to try and destroy the Hartingers. Kristi doesn't care for Randy but knows she was used. Also, per former members of Randys church, Peter was supposed to debate Alan here in this debate and started the fight and asked Randy to help thinking Randy could do a better job! Peter is a manipulator and will do anything to cover up. Kristi was innocently dragged in and Heather Schultz was jealous of her.

Anonymous said...

I know this post and comments are old, but I stumbled on this gem and thought I should give my two cents.
The reason why the PO was dismissed was because Randy put up such a whining fuss about it. He was very particular about not having anything on his record, because he wanted to keep up his perfect christian citizen facade. The judge was actually exasperated and it actually seemed like they let it be dismissed just to get the pest called Randy out of their hair.
The reason for insufficient evidence was because Schultz did not directly and expressly tell Randy to leave him alone. That is why it was dismissed.
Peter did in fact have evidence, but chose to not utilize it because it was concerning Randy’s son who was present during the case, who was secretly giving Peter info about what was going on, what his dad was planning on doing, and very explicit details concerning the family that only the son would know.
The reason Peter decided not to use that evidence in court (nor responded to the messages) was because he did not know if it was a trap. He thought it was Randy trying to entrap him by saying he was contacting an underaged individual or some lie like that. Which, if this is Randy we’re talking about, is extremely plausible and very likely. The guy is a narcissist and psychopath and not someone to be messed with. I’m glad at least one of you in the debate was reasonable!

Anonymous said...

Skype churches are a laugh. Peter was the pastor of the Tulsa church which is a joke being double married and Jim and Chris Lapelley used to be against that stuff but both were witnesses in the case. Whoever wrote the above has an axe to grind for Randy obviously. I disagree with much of what Randy said in the video, and he is definitely a stirrer of controversy, but in both the court cases, Randy was his own lawyer against payed attorneys and won with flying colors. In both cases, Randy hired the court reporters rather than an attorney. Not sure why but it worked. Seems the guilty party would NOT want it all documented so well. To prove this poster wrong, simply refer to the public record and read the transcripts. The Judge was very upset at Peter and expressed anger to him and his witnesses (Jim and Christee - talk about narcissistic - two of the most stuck up people in street preaching). Peter had a bunch of street preachers there trying to blitz but a couple of them were embarrassed and left after the evidence was in the Roanoke church's favor. Just because someone beats you in court and your false case fails does NOT make them narcissists or psycho. DUH. Look no further than the mirror, STUPID. The Judge was upset of FB live feeding into the court room and called Peter's side "Shenanigans" and even had Jim's phone confiscated and he was held in front of the court room. Peter actually DID introduce Randy's sons' documents as evidence sealed in the public record. None of this proved Peter's lies of course. Read the final comments in the transcripts. It was telling that Peter refused to bring his wife into court but got Jim and Christee who both were not in the church but hated Randy from those endless debates online and let's face it, Randy can debate, as Alan here knows with Alan answering questions with "I don't know." Christee did claim to be in their church but Randy said he had never once met her until court. Christee is lying and never lived in Roanoke. Anything and everything was tried. Randy's son was in lust with one of Peter's daughters allegedly and so gave Peter all of Randy's court strategies and the Roanoke church still won which can only mean one thing: Randy was not guilty and was proven not guilty. Peter's attorney tried to impeach Randy's son but the judge shot it down. It's like a movie plot. Read it. The exhibits are a trip. Randy and their "church" if you can call a house church a real church were there.

Anonymous said...

Randy had far more exhibits than Peter and the "preponderance" of evidence. In the Roanoke transcripts, Shaun documented that Peter was lying about the entire court case. Randy turned over a plot by Peter to fool the courts (see the transcript). Randy tried to turn in a sermon by Peter about how it's okay to lie in court. Randy turned in the FB live feed video as evidence as well. Forget novels. Read those transcripts. Peter's attorney objected. The Judge told Peter's attorney that going forward, in her courtroom, for a supposed "protective order" case, she wants 3 strong pieces of real evidence and in this case, he had not even one piece of evidence. Peter was just trying to destroy an innocent man and church. Sicko psycho. Read the transcript. In the middle of the case, the Judge said of Peter, "They didn't have ANY EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THIS ANYWAY!" She was exasperated at Peter and not Randy. Funny how this person twists it. Note how this person contradicts. They say it was dismissed due to the judge tiring of Randy's "whining" (is he supposed to lay down and let liars falsely mar his record?) and then they say it was dismissed for insufficient evidence. Make up your lying mind, Dummy. This shows a malice and lying trend. The judge was angry at Peter for turning in a document that he helped write about the Church of God Restoration cult which Peter invited to defend him. The document actually had Peter saying Randy was impeccable as well as his family. Funny strategy. The Judge was angry at Peter's lawyer for stating that Peter told the church "no contact" and if you will just read the transcript - she stopped him in midway in his final closing comments and demanded the proof and they had none. The exhibits state that Peter and his wife were lying about their marriage to everybody (both had living spouses which are probably still alive) and that this was the reason for the court case. The transcript says that Peter did not object to this and it is sealed in the public record. Peter is in a 5 point Calvinist church now as a board member last I heard so him and Alan should be good friends. Alan had a few good points but Randy clearly won this exchange. Peter is "not someone to be messed with." I am told by an ex-member that Randy will countersue them next time they try something like this. He won both the cases with flying colors which simply means he is innocent of their accusations. Judges don't do 2 days of trials with 2 different court reporters and then just give it to a party that they are exasperated with. This is a public slander against Randy and the judge. And seriously, move along. This was years ago. The public record is sealed. Judgments are final. Lie all you want but some people know how to read.

Rhology said...

Peter is in a 5 point Calvinist church now as a board member last I heard so him and Alan should be good friends

I can be friends with anyone if they repent of their wrongdoing.


Alan had a few good points but Randy clearly won this exchange

Thanks for your thoughts but that's a pretty silly conclusion.

Juan G said...

I don’t really know This Randy or Peter guy and Whatever they are involved in but they both sound like weirdos. You seem to be the only mentally stable person in the debate Alan. You presented the true scriptures clearly with humility and dignity and without putting your own narrative while this Randy guy pointed fingers, called names and sounds Very Unstable.
This was. A very long time ago, but I figured you should have some encouragement, Brother.

Juan said...

Strange people to research. Jim Gilles preaches that any remarriage is serial adultery and for him to stand with Peter (doubled married with 1st spouse still alive) and Heather (double married with 1st spouse still alive who brags that she pursued Peter while he was married) and Cristee (ex-stripper married 4 times and going for 5 now in Oklahoma) and now Jim preaches in Oklahoma with Rich Penkoski (met his ex-stripper wife while married to his first who is still alive who had their firstborn before they married), I smell a rat. Jim stands up for people that are hellbound adulterers according to his own preaching. This crisis of conscience can only mean something very sinister going on there. Randy's two sons hate his guts and hope he burns in hell and both joined Peter and Heather. Alan did a good job in showing Randy's error that nobody can know they are elect and now Randy's 2 sons are now Calvinists like Peter and Heather. Cage rage Arminians will eventually create children that are good Calvinists. Good job, Alan.

Anonymous said...

Just wondering where you got the information that Amanda Penkoski was a stripper?

Juan G said...

um. OK? i couldnt care less. thats. Between whoever Those people are and God. What does that. Have to do with anything.? And If Randys sons hate him so much. That says alot about what kind of. whack-job he is. who cares if their calvinist or not. As long.as they are not With their dad Anymore im willing to bet their doing alot better now as Christian’s then where they were before. Same goes to that Peter guy &the other people. Alan did a Good job in showing Randys error period. And with alot more humility.and purity of heart.

Juan G said...

I hate my Dad. He raised us very strict Bible. Literally anything the Bible calls sin was not allowed or something close to sin was not even permissable. If you ever sinned you got a stern Bible lesson. Normal Christians and regular churches allow sin and aren't in your business, they are cool with it and full of grace, and you can pretty much do what you want unbothered. It is freeing.