Monday, August 27, 2012

When novices try to act like they know what they're doing



Coline Hayposted toAbolish Human Abortion
4 hours ago near Alexandria, VA · 
  • I am pro choice. I've been posting on a few of the pictures on this group for the past hour or so. I've tried to remain as civil as possible and provide reliable sources for my information. I do not wish to start trouble with anyone of you, but I urge you to look your methods of argumentation and generalizations. I think both pro-choice and anti-choice individuals can agree on certain topics (adoption, better sex education, wider availability of contraception, etc). Anyway, I'm posting on this wall because I'm curious about a specific scenario. I've seen many anti choice individuals with differing opinions when it comes to pregnancies that are a result of rape and incest. But I've yet to get a solid opinion on how you all feel about abortions in the case of fetuses with Anencephaly. If you could share your views, I would appreciate it. Thanks!
     · 

    • Noel Bryant likes this.

      • Liz Davidson you need to look up "Nicolas Coke" a little boy born with that condition and, as of July this year, is still alive. And who can say whether or not the child would have an impaired quality of life? At least allow children with this condition a chance to survive.
        4 hours ago · 

      • Nikko Matthews they make up not even 3-5 percent of abortions most people do it because they didn't use contraceptive not because of rape or incest
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Just some information.

        "A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a rudimentary brain stem, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Reflex actions such as breathing and responses to sound or touch may occur."

        (Source: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/anencephaly/anencephaly.htm)

        Anencephaly Information Page: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)
        www.ninds.nih.gov
        Anencephaly information sheet compiled by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS).
        3 hours ago ·  · 

      • Coline Hay Why do you think that Nicolas Coke or other fetuses and babies with Anencephaly should be given a chance at life if science confirms they can never achieve personhood? They are only able to function in the most primitive sense, and only with life support.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay I mean, obviously at this point Nicholas has a family that loves him and it would be difficult to let him die.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Matt Correia No matter how impaired, he or she would still be a person and in my opinion should be treated as such. They don't usually live past two years, so is it that much of a burden for that time, or would parents really rather abort it right away, giving it no chance of survival?
        3 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Dee Hamilton What is the Prognosis for a Child With Anencephaly?
        The prognosis for a child with anencephaly is extremely poor. Because the child lacks much of their brain, they will not be able to think, feel, or experience consciousness. Newborn anencephalic children are usually deaf and blind, and they cannot feel pain. While anencephalic newborn infants may be able to breathe or respond to touch or sound, they are not actually consciously reacting to these stimuli; the reaction is involuntary and comes from the brain stem, the oldest part of the brain at the base of the neck.

        Children born with anencephaly are only expected to live a few hours, days, or weeks. Seventy-five percent of anencephalic births are still births, while the remaining 25 percent of infants die shortly thereafter.

        My opinion, respect and support any decision.
        3 hours ago ·  · 2

      • Coline Hay But what is the point of it surviving? It is literally doing just that-surviving. It will never be able to "live", in terms of how we view life. It cannot think or feel. It cannot even feel love.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Matt Correia While it may not "feel" the tangible things we can feel, I personally believe it still has a soul that can feel love. And when it's the baby's time to go (naturally), then that was its time. It should not be up to us to end its life just because we don't think it's experiencing life normally.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#what-about-a-baby-who-is-horribly-deformed-isnt-it-better-to-spare-that-child-a-life-of-suffering

        Abolitionist FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) | Abolish Human Abortion
        abolishhumanabortion.com
        We provide answers to the most frequent questions that we receive, and responses to the most frequent arguments that we encounter.
        3 hours ago ·  · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\It cannot think or feel. It cannot even feel love.\\

        I have to ask you to stop and think - how in the world can you know that?
        3 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\science confirms they can never achieve personhood\\

        What precisely does this sentence mean?
        How can science measure personhood? What is personhood made of? What is its atomic weight? Of what elements is it composed?
        What experiments have been done to determine how much personhood a given product of human sexual reproduction contains?
        3 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Nikko Matthews again these cases are EXTREMELY rare y cant kill thirty people because one might be a theif
        3 hours ago · 

      • Nikko Matthews you*
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay ‎"I have to ask you to stop and think - how in the world can you know that?"

        Because it doesn't have the required brain function or anatomy to do that.
        3 hours ago ·  · 3

      • Coline Hay You're right, science cannot prove personhood. Definitely misspoke there. But personhood is generally thought of as consciousness- self awareness, the ability to think and experience, the ability to feel some sort of emotion. But these fetuses and babies don't have the level of cognition necessary to truly have consciousness.
        3 hours ago · Edited · 

      • Coline Hay And Nikko, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say or how it is related to this particular topic.
        3 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ personhood is generally thought of as consciousness\\

        By whom? Atheistic naturalists? Certainly not by Christians. Atheistic naturalists need to give us a reason to think they're right and we're wrong about personhood. Do you know how you could go about proving that?

        \\ But these fetuses and babies don't have the level of cognition necessary to truly have consciousness.\\

        How do you know this?
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\Because it doesn't have the required brain function or anatomy to do that.\\

        You are assuming that brain function is a necessary precondition for thinking and feeling. Again, this is an atheistic naturalist *assumption*. What is your evidence that it is true?
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay ‎"By whom? Atheistic naturalists? Certainly not by Christians. Atheistic naturalists need to give us a reason to think they're right and we're wrong about personhood. Do you know how you could go about proving that?"

        By many philosophers. This is not about atheism or Christianity.

        "How do you know this?"

        Getting evidence, hold on a moment please.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion What is your argument that we should listen to those "many philosophers"? According to many others, that is not the case. How do we decide?
        And I'm afraid it IS about atheism or Christianity. If Christianity is true, all humans are made in the image of God and are of the same value, regardless of their IQ, abilities, and skill set.
        If atheism is true, humans are molecules in motion. There exists literally no objective reason to be kind to any human. There is also no reason to be mean and nasty to them. Nothing matters if atheism is true, including the idea that atheism is true.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Make sure your evidence makes a definite certain connection between brain function and consciousness and feeling. Don't merely repeat the assumption that you've already stated.
        If you can't provide evidence, recognise such and retract your statement.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Where is your scientific evidence, by the way?
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion For what? I have made no positive statements.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Okay, fetuses and babies with Anencephaly tend to have just a brain stem. The brain stem consists of the following:

        "Midbrain/ Mesencephalon- the rostral part of the brain stem, which includes the tectum and tegmentum. It is involved in functions such as vision, hearing, eyemovement, and body movement. The anterior part has the cerebral peduncle, which is a huge bundle of axons traveling from the cerebral cortex through the brain stem and these fibers (along with other structures) are important for voluntary motor function.

        Pons- part of the metencephalon in the hindbrain. It is involved in motor control and sensory analysis... for example, information from the ear first enters the brain in the pons. It has parts that are important for the level of consciousness [note that consciousness is this sense is different than what we are talking about] and for sleep. Some structures within the pons are linked to the cerebellum, thus are involved in movement and posture.

        Medulla Oblongata- this structure is the caudal-most part of the brain stem, between the pons and spinal cord. It is responsible for maintaining vital body functions, such as breathing and heartrate."

        (Source: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Structure1.html#brainstem)

        Brain Structures and Their Functions
        serendip.brynmawr.edu
        The nervous system is your body's decision and communication center. The centra...See More
        3 hours ago ·  · 

      • Dee Hamilton ‎"They don't usually live past two years,so is it that much of a burden for that time" Matt Correia. @Matt-For some, Yes. Tell me Matt, are you going to be sharing that burden with these parents? Didn't think so.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Dee Hamilton again with the judgment, as if she knows anything about anyone here.
        3 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Here's some good thoughts on consciousness backed up by science:
        http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/Elsevier-NCC.html
        The Neuronal Basis of Consciousness
        www.klab.caltech.edu
        Please address all correspondence to Dr. Christof Koch at the Division of ...See More
        3 hours ago ·  · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ If the brain is anaesthetized, consciousness ceases\\

        Where's the argument that an anesthetised brain is similar enough to anencephaly?

        \\Small lesions in the midbrain and thalamus of patients can lead to a complete loss of consciousness\\

        Ditto.
        If you succeed in establishing brain function = consciousness, your next task is to connect level of function and ability with amount of personhood and applicability of human rights.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson Nicolas Coke is living proof that not all humans die from this condition at birth and if their families have a chance of loving their babies even for a few days will it not be worth it?
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Did he survive naturally? Or with tremendous life support?
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Coline Hay And if they want that baby, they can have it. They can love it all they want until it dies, if they so choose. But I wanted to know whether or not people who identify as anti-choice think that aborting a fetus with Anencephaly is acceptable. The answer I'm getting so far is no, and from a Christian standpoint.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎(Just a reminder to everyone, in case he takes food and water via IV or something - water and nutrients are not an extraordinary, or "tremendous" level of care.)
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Nobody identifies as anti-choice here, so I figure you won't be getting any response here.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Nicolas Coke takes a great amount of medication every day.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion But no, if you meant those who identify as abolitionists and anti-abortion, it is never justifiable to abort a child just because he has a disease.
        Were you perfect when you were born? In perfect health? Not ANYthing wrong with you at all? How do we decide the cut-off point for when a baby is imperfect enough that it's OK to murder him in his mother's womb?
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay This isn't a disease. This is a condition which prevents the fetus or baby from ever being able to function as a person.
        2 hours ago ·  · 2

      • Abolish Human Abortion Please define what it means to "function as a person", and how you know your definition is correct.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay I already posted a link to the page on brain function and how it relates consciousness and personhood.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion No, it discussed CONSCIOUSNESS, not personhood. All your work is still ahead of you.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson so does an HIV sufferer, whats your point?
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Abolish Human Abortion I think she wants to say that someone who takes a lot of medicine isn't a person. She decided. Apparently she thinks she has authority and power to tell other people they're not people at all, because they take too many medications.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson by that reasoning Coline, my dad wasn't a person as he had to take meds to control his diabetes, my mother neither nor my uncle as they both take medication for epilepsy! Even I have to take meds for hayfever and allergies are we not persons too?this debate is becoming silly!
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay It's becoming silly because you're not following my argument. I never said that taking medication nullifies personhood.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Abolish Human Abortion OK, please continue then. There are a lot of questions already for you to answer here.l
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay That was merely a poor assumption that you made. I was stating that in addition to the life support the baby receives, he also receives a lot of medication.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay I have already answered your questions with scientific evidence, while you have only backed up your statements and questions with religion.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Noel Bryant You're putting words in her mouth now.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay All this debate has proven to me is that the anti choice people I encountered have a tendency to misinterpret evidence, put words in my mouth, and use Christianity as opposed to science to back up claims.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Liz Davidson when did I ever mention religion? I gave you an example of how you could be wrong about this condition and all you've tried to do is rubbish it with ad hominums against sufferers. This is becoming silly. And you alluded to the fact that because Nicolas takes a lot of meds he has no quality of life, I merely pointed out that not everyone who takes a lot of meds has no quality of life!
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay No, I never alluded to that. Once again, you made that assumption.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\I have already answered your questions with scientific evidence, while you have only backed up your statements and questions with religion.\\

        This is clearly false.
        For one thing, you have ASSUMED your scientific evidence is relevant, not proved it.
        You have not answered my questions about it.
        I have made no points, actually, bur instead have asked you questions, most of which you have not even addressed. You have additionally demonstrated marked ignorance of the relevance of your presuppositions, and thus of ignorance of philosophy.

        You can try to sum it all up in your biased way, but why haven't you used your time to answer my questions instead?
        Besides, if God is real, why wouldn't He be a higher standard for truth than inductive experiments? I bet yopu're not even familiar with the problem of induction.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay And Abolish Human Abortion brought up religion.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion It's also kind of pathetic how you say "anti-choice" so glibly without bothering to define it or give us a reason why it should apply to us. You're anti-choice with respect to all sorts of things too, so maybe we should just call each other anti-choice.
        Your simplistic views lead to absurdity.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ Abolish Human Abortion brought up religion\\

        God forbid! We wouldn't want to talk about the omniscient Creator!
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Anti-choice means you're against a woman's right to choose abortion as an option.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion You mean her right to choose to murder her child.
        You're anti-choice too.
        The state “forces” us all to do or not do all sorts of things, such as:

        not rape, even if someone really really wants to
        drive at or under the speed limit
        refrain from firebombing legal places of business
        pay taxes
        etc.
        Unless you’re a consistent and total anarchist, you don’t have a problem with the state “forcing” its will on its citizens in some cases. The question is not whether morality will be imposed, but which morality will be imposed.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson ‎"Nicolas Coke takes a great amount of medication every day." Clearly this is argument in support of your stance that all babies with this condition should be aborted, alluding (or if you prefer insinuating, means you never actually said it but it looks like it) that people who take a lot of medication have no quality of life. I ask you again when did /I/ use religion?
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant You are both twisting Coline's words and making this argument impossible because of how defensive you are of your own beliefs. You cannot factor religion into this because not everyone has the same religion.
        Coline is merely saying that a parent should have the ability to choose abortion for these specific reasons. She's not saying they should be aborted.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Liz Davidson if thats the definition of ant-choice (and I will look it up) then I have no choice other than to accept it. However I don't believe Anti-choice means that nor do I believe we fall under that category, we merely take 1 option out of the equation!
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay It wasn't being used as an argument, it was being used to support that Nicholas receives a considerable amount of care, because AHA only mentioned food and water as the care he received.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\Coline is merely saying that a parent should have the ability to choose abortion for these specific reasons. \\

        She's ASSERTING it but not PROVING it.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ You cannot factor religion into this because not everyone has the same religion. \\

        If one person thinks 2+2=4 and another thinks 2+2=778, I guess you'd say that we can't factor math into this because not everyone has the same idea of math.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay That's different, because the only correct answer to that is 4.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson then say that. And you haven't properly answered my second question, if you were referring to AHA only then again say it as I have commented on this post to and could gather that "you" was referring to me to! However right or wrong it was, Coline!
        2 hours ago · 

      • Liz Davidson what belief am I defending Noel? That every child deserves a shot at life? God-forbid. *dripping with sarcasm*
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ‎"Not everyone has the same idea of math." That has to be one of the most ridiculous, far-fetched comparisons I have ever heard. Math is universal and consistent to a degree. You cannot compare it to religion because they're both based on completely different things. It's like comparing apples and monkeys. It doesn't work like that.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\That's different, because the only correct answer to that is 4.\\

        And the God of the Bible really exists. So there you go.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Yes, I was referring to AHA, who represents a population.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant What. You can prove that the correct answer is 4. You cannot prove God exists and it's not fair to people who don't believe in him.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Right. You can neither prove nor disprove God's existence, but you can prove that the sum of 2 and 2 is 4.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion False again. http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#god-does-not-exist

        Go ahead though - prove to me that 2+2=4.

        Abolitionist FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) | Abolish Human Abortion
        abolishhumanabortion.com
        We provide answers to the most frequent questions that we receive, and responses to the most frequent arguments that we encounter.
        2 hours ago ·  · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion You can neither prove nor disprove that 2+2=4.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Coline, this is ridiculous.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Coline Hay Took the words out of my mouth, Noel. This is a hopeless cause.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Noel Bryant, profanity is not allowed here.

        What? You think God doesn't exist? This is ridiculous. You've got to be kidding me.

        See? Anyone can play this game.
        I take it that you CAN'T prove that 2+2=4, yeah?
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant I don't know whether God exists or not, but obviously I'm not going to be convinced by a Bible verse. How about this: 2+2=4. Take two apples. Add another two apples to them. Count the apples. You should have four. If you don't have four, you messed up somewhere along the way.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion How do you know that this is always the case? Have you examined EVERY TIME someone took two apples and added two more, and what happened? Doesn't the universe evolve and change? How do you know that 2+2 will equal 4 one minute from now?
        2 hours ago · 

      • Noel Bryant WHAT? Prove to me that it was ever anything else.
        2 hours ago ·  · 1

      • Ally Waufle AHA you're confusing atheism with nihilism. Nihilism is a philosophical belief; that everything means nothing. An atheist just believes that there is no god; not that there isn't a purpose to life. Yes, there sometimes is a correlation between the two, but it's not fair to say that all atheists believe in nothing. I believe this is where the debate became muddled and too opinionated.
        2 hours ago via mobile ·  · 2

      • Noel Bryant The individual opinions don't even matter anymore. The arguments just suck and make little to no sense.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Atheism RESULTS in nihilism if taken to its logical conclusion.
        Prove to me that meaning exists, if atheism is true. Good luck!

        Noel Bryant, I asked YOU. If you want me to have the burden of proof about GOd, you have the burden of proof about 2+2=4.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Noel Bryant, that's another assertion devoid of an argument.
        2 hours ago · 

      • Dee Hamilton http://freethoughtblogs.com/alstefanelli/2011/10/17/abortion-is-not-murder/

        Abortion Is Not Murder | Al Stefanelli
        freethoughtblogs.com
        The moral truth here is obvious: anyone who feels that  the interests of a blast...See More
        about an hour ago ·  · 

      • Noel Bryant I'm saying that there's never been an instance where 2+2 didn't equal 4.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Noel Bryant The only way to prove that's wrong is to disprove it.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Noel Bryant So go. Tell me there's been an instance where it wasn't that way.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Glenn Alexander AHA- I would assume it unnecessary to prove to you that meaning exists. By the mere fact that you are understanding these words, they have meaning. As an atheist, my claim would be closer to: "Meaning is a subjective experience. Something only has meaning if it means something TO SOMEONE. In the absence of consciousness, there is no meaning".

        And it can be proven trivially that 2+2=4 (just add 2 things to 2 other things). To prove that this always has, is, and will continue to be true? Well, that's a little beyond my expertise. I seriously doubt anyone here would understand the answer. I believe Bertrand Russell may have written on this?
        about an hour ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Now prove to me that God exists with an argument that doesn't require some foundation of belief already. (Like the Bible. You cannot prove God exists to me with the Bible because the Bible was not written by God. It was written by people. People are human. They can be wrong.)
        about an hour ago ·  · 2

      • Chris Minor This is the funniest argument ive ever seen. AHA you want the proof for 2+2=4 http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/12/224-proof.html

        Skeptic's Play: 2+2=4: a proof
        skepticsplay.blogspot.com
        Muahahaha! We've got our claws into you now--soon you'll be changing your major ...See More
        about an hour ago ·  · 2 · 

      • Chris Minor Next, there is no proof that god exists, much less the version of the judah christian god. The only "proof" is written in the Bible, which was written by a bunch of people who in fact never met jesus, as such how would they know that god exists, and if god did exist wouldnt he have smited all the non believers, because in the bible it says that god is a jealous god and that man would worship no other, yet other religions exist and all the atheists are still alive and I am alive as well, so that means that either god has gone soft and its not all powerful as people claim him to be, or he doesnt exist. I go for the latter one, because that is the most probable situation. Secondly, no one has the right to choose if a child exists or not except for the mother, and possibly the father. Because in fact a child is a combination of the mothers and fathers DNA, and if they do not want their offspring to live, then thats their decision, and they should not be punished for it. We could look through history and say "hey wouldnt it have been better if this person didnt exist??" This could be made for many mass murderers throughout history, or other unsavory people. However, because this is all speculation, you will not take it seriously.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Ally Waufle I am an atheist and I believe in love, friendship, the individual, and existence. There are many authors, which are atheists, and portray similar feelings in their works. IE hemingway, sartre, etc. ironically enough, kierkegaard who was christian, is considered by many, the father of existentialism and nihilism.
        about an hour ago via mobile ·  · 2

      • Ally Waufle If there is no God (which is a possibility), I would say almost everybody to live has had a 'meaningful' existence. And vice versa if there is a God. Meaning to life has nothing to do with one's religious affiliations but with who they are as an individual. It's all subjective.
        about an hour ago via mobile ·  · 2

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ People are human. They can be wrong.)\\

        So you could be wrong about 2+2=4 and everything you claim to know, couldn't you?
        Don't talk anymore until you've read the resource I linked you to showing that God exists; else you just waste everyone's time.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ there is no proof that god exists, much less the version of the judah christian god\\

        See above. I already posted it.

        \ there is no proof that god exists, much less the version of the judah christian god\\

        You're not engaging. You're just asserting.

        \\ so that means that either god has gone soft and its not all powerful as people claim him to be, or he doesnt exist.\\

        Or He's as the BIble describes HIm - He's patient.

        \\d if they do not want their offspring to live, then thats their decision, and they should not be punished for it. W\\

        Why stop with babies? Can your parents justifiably decide to kill you?
        How do you know what is morally right and wrong?
        about an hour ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\I am an atheist and I believe in love, friendship, the individual, and existence. \\

        Good for you. And some ppl believe in leprechauns.

        \\I would say almost everybody to live has had a 'meaningful' existence\\

        Which proves nothing more than that you think so. But I didn't ask whether YOU THINK SO. I asked whether they HAD meaning and value.

        \\ It's all subjective.\\

        Prove it. Don't assert it. Show it.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Chris Minor, your "proof" that 2+2=4 was nothing but assertion.

        See, this is silly, and that's why I"m posting it. Requiring evidence for God's existnece is silly too. It is a necessary truth. He is a necessary being.
        Do yourself a favor and actually read the arguments. Since you people don't seem very interseted in following the convo, I'll post them again.
        http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#god-does-not-exist

        Abolitionist FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) | Abolish Human Abortion
        abolishhumanabortion.com
        We provide answers to the most frequent questions that we receive, and responses to the most frequent arguments that we encounter.
        about an hour ago ·  · 

      • Noel Bryant I did look at the link. I don't agree with what you've given as proof that God exists there.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Jamie Wersal Meaning in life without god can mean anything to different people. Atheism does not lead to nihilism, but it CAN lead to humanism. As an agnostic, I take meaning from trying to make a difference in the life of someone else. If indeed there is no god, there is no eternal life after we die, so we have to make the most of the one that we have and try to improve everyone else's short visit on this planet.
        about an hour ago · 

      • Noel Bryant You can't prove that's something's subjective simply because of that. It's subjective. Your arguments are ridiculous! You're not proving your point anymore than you're accusing us of not proving ours. Based off of what you're saying, your "proof" that God exists is an assertion, too.
        59 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\I don't agree with what you've given as proof that God exists there\\

        So? What is your ARGUMENT that the proofs are no good?
        58 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ I take meaning from trying to make a difference in the life of someone else\\

        Let's say I think that meaning doesn't exist at all.
        PROVE to me meaning exists. If you can't, why wouldn't I be reasonable in concluding you are simply wrong about it?

        \\o we have to make the most of the one that we have and try to improve everyone else's short visit on this planet.\\

        Why do we have to do that?
        What does it mean to improve? According to what standard?
        57 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\Your arguments are ridiculous!\\

        Don't assert ti. Show it. Prove it.
        56 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\Based off of what you're saying, your "proof" that God exists is an assertion, too.\\

        If by "assertion" you mean "offered 10 arguments in favor", then yes, I "asserted".
        56 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant They imply that because we exist, God is the one that created us, but nowhere does it actually prove it was GOD and not something else. All of your 'proof' is based on the assumption that God is the only possible being that could have created us, and your only proof of that specifically comes from the Bible... which is based off of people.
        55 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant It doesn't matter how many arguments you give if they're all similar and flawed.
        54 minutes ago ·  · 1

      • Noel Bryant You cannot prove meaning. It varies from person to person, which is why you cannot regulate it. If you didn't believe meaning existed, it would not change the fact that someone else does believe meaning exists. It wouldn't make their life any less meaningful. There's nothing you can argue there.
        52 minutes ago · 

      • Jamie Wersal AHA- I can't prove it because different people find meaning (or lack of it) in different ways. I stated that. But based on what you are saying, if there was no God, it would be very likely that you would go on a spree of killing, theft, and rape because without a God there is nothing to stop you from doing so. You argue that humans have no sense of guilt or empathy and are only behaving because we fear burning in hell for all of eternity (or suffering in whatever it is that you define as hell).
        52 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ They imply that because we exist, God is the one that created us, but nowhere does it actually prove it was GOD and not something else. \\

        Which shows you didn't read them.
        51 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\You cannot prove meaning. It varies from person to person, which is why you cannot regulate it. \\

        Don't assert it. Show it. Prove it.
        51 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant How.
        51 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Show me what I missed there that proves what I said otherwise.
        50 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\It wouldn't make their life any less meaningful. T\\

        Oh, OK. So if someone is living a lie, in a fantasy, it doesn't make their life less meaningful.
        Of course, you're assuming meaning exists, which is the very question at hand.
        Don't assert it. Show it. Prove it.
        50 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ But based on what you are saying, if there was no God, it would be very likely that you would go on a spree of killing, theft, and rape because without a God there is nothing to stop you from doing so.\\

        Common, and false, conclusion.
        Don't assert that things matter. Show it. Prove it.
        50 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\only behaving because we fear burning in hell for all of eternity (or suffering in whatever it is that you define as hell).\\

        Sadly, you know nothing of Christianity. Doesn't it bother you to be so ignorant or something you're arguing against?
        49 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant You misunderstood me. I meant the fact that one person doesn't believe in meaning will not affect another persons belief in meaning.
        49 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ‎"But based on what you are saying, if there was no God, it would be very likely that you would go on a spree of killing, theft, and rape because without a God there is nothing to stop you from doing so.\\

        Common, and false, conclusion.
        Don't assert that things matter. Show it. Prove it."

        Where the hell did that come from?
        48 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ah, Jamie. Sorry I didn't see your comment.
        48 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ‎"\\ They imply that because we exist, God is the one that created us, but nowhere does it actually prove it was GOD and not something else. \\

        Which shows you didn't read them. "

        Enlighten me. I'll even use your favorite word. PROVE to me that I didn't read them based off of what I said here.
        45 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\fact that one person doesn't believe in meaning will not affect another persons belief in meaning.\\

        HOw do you know? Don't assert it. Show it. Prove it.

        \\. PROVE to me that I didn't read them based off of what I said here.\\

        Simple - you didn't accurately reflect their content.
        43 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion And um, that should be YOUR favorite word too. After all, the atheists here asked me to prove God exists, which you all know is true but won't admit.
        Clearly, though, y'all don't care about proving things b/c all you have done is assert.
        42 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Who is to say that I didn't accurately reflect their content? PROVEEEE it.
        42 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\Who is to say that I didn't accurately reflect their content?\\

        Right, right, right. Now you're just acting like a fool.
        42 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant I honestly don't believe God exists and you haven't given me anything to make me think otherwise.
        41 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion From here, everyone:
        http://www.facebook.com/AbolishHumanAbortion/info

        "God has not called us to spend endless hours going around in circles with scoffers.
        If you show yourself to be a scoffer (Proverbs 3:34, 13:1, 14:6, 15:12, 19:25, 21:1
        1, 21:24, 22:10, 24:9) and after rebuke do not repent and produce fruit in keeping with repentance, you will be banned. For more information, read this.
        (Link: http://www.vox-veritatis.com/2012/07/a-biblical-view-of-and-approach-to-dealing-with-scoffers/)"

         In short, you need to start providing SUBSTANTIVE argumentation here, or we're done and you can find someone else who has time to waste talking to you and dealing with your vapid inanities.


        Abolish Human Abortion

        Following in the footsteps of former abolitionist movements, we aim to end one o...See More
        Page: 12,536 like this
        40 minutes ago ·  · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\you haven't given me anything to make me think otherwise.\\

        How would you know that? You haven't read what I gave you.
        40 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant And you can't say that I didn't accurately reflect their content. The only way all of the arguments work is if God is indeed the only possible answer to the question of the creator of the universe. That's the ONLY way. It's based off of that assumption and it doesn't prove that assumption.
        39 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant You cannot prove that God exists with the Bible. It was written by people. Not God.
        38 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner ‎Abolish Human Abortion-I see at one point in this discussion you got caught up in an argument about evolution and stated that you can't prove 2+2=4. I hate to admit it, but they got you to make a mistake there, of course you can prove that 2+2=4, but that has nothing to do with an argument about evolution.
        33 minutes ago · Edited · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ of course you can prove that 2+2=4\\

        Not if atheism is true. And so far, they haven't.
        I said it for a reason: to expose their massive assumptions that run directly counter to the atheistic worldview.
        33 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner 
        The essential flaw when arguing with evolutionists: What it comes down to is science and faith. Science is simply observations, we observe the world around us to discover how things work. When we can actually touch, see, hear, smell, taste,
         it becomes undeniable fact. Religion does not work that way. We can't use our normal senses to observe God. I believe in God because I choose to believe. That is faith. Evolutionists argue that I need to prove God exists with scientific fact. This is fundamentally wrong, as religion is not a matter of scientific fact, but rather a matter of faith. Evolution on the other hand is supposed to be a science. As a science it should be observable in one way or another, yet nobody has ever observed it. Instead it is in fact not a true science, but rather a scientific theory. A scientific theory is really nothing more than an educated guess, based on scientific observations. Since nobody has ever observed evolution, to believe in it becomes nothing but a matter of FAITH. In short, belief in God or belief in evolution both require faith.
        32 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ‎"not if atheism is true." What.
        31 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion You'd know what I mean if you'd read the materials, Noel.
        30 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant There's nothing wrong with believing God exists. I actually think religion is essential to the world. I'm merely saying you cannot tell me that those links are PROOF that God exists because the arguments are flawed.
        29 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Stop assuming I didn't read them because I don't agree with them. I did.
        29 minutes ago · 

      • Matthew Kyle Huber 
        Why are you quoting a book made by man? And lets think for a moment shall we? If god is real, then so are the Greek gods. And the gods of ancient culture ie. Egyptian, and Nordic. Who is to say that they aren't real? Because that book says?
         Come on... That's rediculous. Religion is the most used reason for every war and era of destruction. It is manipulative and emotionally destructive. Not once have I met a religious person that was devout and non judgemental at the same time. It breeds negativity.
        28 minutes ago via mobile ·  · 1

      • Noel Bryant How on earth do you come to the conclusion that you can't prove 2+2=4 based off of atheism?
        27 minutes ago · 

      • Matthew Kyle Huber ‎Noel Bryant I would stop even trying. This is a closed minded group favoring the newest human/god myth. It's sad. And its flawed. They won't change.
        26 minutes ago via mobile · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Matthew Kyle Huber - how do you know those things are bad?
        Don't assert they're bad. Prove it. Show it.
        26 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Yeah, I'm about to drop it. I just felt like if I kept spelling it out for them, they would get it.
        26 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Noel, you'd know if you'd read the materials.
        25 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant AHA- You avoided his main point.
        25 minutes ago · 

      • Chris Minor 
        ‎"But based on what you are saying, if there was no God, it would be very likely that you would go on a spree of killing, theft, and rape because without a God there is nothing to stop you from doing so." How so?? Religion is not what does 
        this its law. Thomas Hobbes wrote a fantastic book called The Leviathan, which he says that human life is nasty brutish and short, and we give up some freedoms for law to happen, not religion, but law. In fact it is more likely that without religion that there would be less murders and other things of that nature. How many people have killed other people in the name of their god?? How about the crusades. If religion didnt exist then they wouldnt have been started. There might of been other reasons but definitely not because of the differences in peoples religions. In fact most of the discrimination that happens is religious persecution. "OH NO this guy has a different belief system than me, blast him" The majority of the Puritan colonies were founded because of religious persecution, and because of all the persecution, that is why the US decided to separate church and State, and to allow religious freedom through the first amendment. Now as much as this argument is fun, Roe vs Wade is LAW, and as such the right to abortions is approved by the US, and to not approve of the US is to be unAmerican. So that means that people that are against abortions are unAmerican.
        25 minutes ago ·  · 1

      • Matthew Kyle Huber Prove god exists. Show me.
        24 minutes ago via mobile · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Matthew Kyle Huber
        http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#god-does-not-exist

        Read that. Then come back here and prove evidence exists. Show me.

        Abolitionist FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) | Abolish Human Abortion
        abolishhumanabortion.com
        We provide answers to the most frequent questions that we receive, and responses to the most frequent arguments that we encounter.
        23 minutes ago ·  · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎Chris Minor - how do you know those things are bad?
        Don't assert they're bad. Prove it. Show it.
        22 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Read through them, Mattie. The arguments are all based off of the assumption that God is the only possible being who could've created the universe, but nowhere does it prove that.
        22 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Then, Chris Minor, show that "bad things happen = God doesn't exist". Don't assert it. Show it.
        22 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\ So that means that people that are against abortions are unAmerican.\\

        Just like those who fought to abolish slavery in America before 1865 were unAmerican too, I guess.
        That's just a foolish thing to say. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying something so ridiculous.
        21 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner ‎@matthew kyle huber You can't prove God exists, that is a matter of faith. But belief in evolution is no less a matter of faith.
        20 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Exactly the point. You can't prove God exists.
        19 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion I disagree with Joshua Turner on this point.
        18 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant NO WAY. WE COULDN'T TELL.
        18 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner You aren't getting any argument from me on that point. I can be sure God exists because I feel his presence, see the world He created, talk to Him through prayer, but someone who has no faith in God can not experience these things. You can't prove God's existence through science.
        4 minutes ago · Edited · 

      • Joshua Turner ‎Abolish Human AbortionIt is not God's nature to be proven by man. GOD IS. It's as simple as that, He can't be proven, because no proof is needed to validate His existence.
        12 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion Well, sure, not through science, but there's more to proving stuff than just science. Science is incredibly limited in its exploratory and explanatory power. It can't prove that science is a valid way of knowing stuff, for example.
        12 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Well what I was trying to say was that AHA can't say that God exists because the links they posted are 'proof'. They aren't.
        12 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion That's Noel's unsupported opinion. She's basically just saying "nuh UH!"
        11 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant ‎"Well, sure, not through science, but there's more to proving stuff than just science. Science is incredibly limited in its exploratory and explanatory power. It can't prove that science is a valid way of knowing stuff, for example."

        Nah,
         of course not, but BELIEVING something is totally a valid way of knowing something. If you're given a book on a it and thousands of people follow it, it must be true. Why else would they? And of course, because YOU believe it, you must be right. There is no other possible way. GOD forbid...
        8 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant I'm done here.
        8 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner ‎Abolish Human AbortionScience is limited, but so is man. If you are trying to prove something to man, we are limited to what is observable. Anything we can't observe we can't be sure of. The wonderful thing is that when we have faith, God gives us the ability to observe Him, albeit still in a limited fashion, since we could not withstand His full presence.
        7 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\I'm done here.\\

        You were done a long time ago. You did not do your position any favors and barely even engaged the topic at hand. You need to repent of your foolish unbelief.
        6 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion ‎\\The wonderful thing is that when we have faith, God gives us the ability to observe Him, albeit still in a limited fashion, since we could not withstand His full presence.\\

        Now THAT is most certainly true. :-)
        3 minutes ago · 

      • Noel Bryant Long live Satan. Kill all the unborn children. Have all the gay sex. Whooohoooo!
        2 minutes ago · 

      • Joshua Turner ‎Abolish Human Abortionlol, to put it simply: You can't prove God exists to someone unless they have already chosen to believe. Good thing God can use us to help guide people to that belief, or nobody could be saved.
        2 minutes ago · 

      • Abolish Human Abortion And so Noel Bryant chooses to leave zero doubt about her folly.
        I'm going to ban her now, but I'll post this entire thread on my blog and then I'll post the URL here. FB will send all her foolish comments to the spam filter once she is banned, unfortunately.
        about a minute ago · 
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1 comment:

lis said...

For Colin's information no one "identifies" as anti-choice. That is a misnomer people like her apply to people who identify as pro-life or abolitionists.

Sat Sep 01, 02:37:00 PM CDT

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