Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. If God allows rape, then he allows abortion. He believes in free-will. They should too.- Rhology What you're missing is that God is patient and does not destroy sinners just before they sin or right after... He usually waits a long time before judgment comes on them. But His clear commands are not to rape and not to murder.
Yet He redeems and brings good out of evil, even the gift of life out of being raped.
On our blog we have a lovely testimony published just last week about a woman who was raped and who loves her child.
Another one from a couple of months ago.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com
Don't love death and don't mock God. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. I don't believe in your God.
If a woman wishes to keep a product of rape, that is her CHOICE.
That would not be my choice.
You God gives people free-will. Who are you to take their free-will from them?
I will mock your god. You god does so many horrific things to people that don't deserve them.
God lets bad things happen to good people and people like you call it God's will.
If God is so against abortion, I suggest he stop giving his little gifts to those that will abort. While he is at it, he might want to stop giving little gifts to those that will abuse it after it is born. Your relationship with your god is the most abusive relationship ever. I chose not to be in such an abusive relationship. - Rhology \\ I don't believe in your God.\\
Unsurprising.
\\You God gives people free-will. Who are you to take their free-will from them?\\
I don't believe God gives people free will. Free CHOICE, sure. Maybe that's what you meant.
I am no one. God however has commanded us not to do certain things. Some choices are wrong.
*YOU* want to remove "free will" from those who'd like to rape a woman, so your objection has no teeth.
\\I will mock your god.\\
He's crushed; I hope you know that.
\\You god does so many horrific things to people that don't deserve them.\\
He thinks we all deserve Hell and extends mercy to people so that we all have longer lives than we have merited.
What's your argument that we don't deserve horrific things? How do you know what is deserved?
\\God lets bad things happen to good people and people like you call it God's will.\\
That only happened once, and He volunteered.
There are no good people.
If you disagree, please let me know what your standard of measurement for goodness and badness is. Don't say "society", don't say "my instinct", and don't say "science" - those are answers for fools. What is it?
\\If God is so against abortion, I suggest he stop giving his little gifts to those that will abort.\\
I'm sure the Almighty will take your suggestion under advisement.
\\While he is at it, he might want to stop giving little gifts to those that will abuse it after it is born.\\
What you're missing is that God is patient and does not destroy sinners just before they sin or right after... He usually waits a long time before judgment comes on them. But His clear commands are not to rape and not to murder.
Yet He redeems and brings good out of evil, even the gift of life out of being abused as a child.
On our blog we have a lovely testimony published just last week about a woman who was molested as a child and who loves her child, born of her molester.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com
Don't love death and don't mock God.
\\ Your relationship with your god is the most abusive relationship ever\\
This is nothing more than a rant, pure emoting. Not an argument driven by reason. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //He's crushed; I hope you know that.//
I'm sure.
//He thinks we all deserve Hell //
That's why he is not a loving god. He is abusive.
//There are no good people.//
Excellent. Then there's no problem removing a bad person from a uterus.
//What you're missing is that God is patient and does not destroy sinners just before they sin or right after...//
Not missing a thing. He lets sinners destroy others, even his own followers. Great guy that is. My father actually protected me growing up and would have destroyed anyone that tried to hurt me, because he actually loves me.
//This is nothing more than a rant, pure emoting. Not an argument driven by reason.//
Can't have an argument driven by reason over religion. There is no reasoning in religion. - Rhology What if we really do deserve Hell, though? To NOT send us directly there would be loving, right? And to die Himself in the place of Hell-deserving sinners so they wouldn't go to Hell would be loving, right?
\\Then there's no problem removing a bad person from a uterus.\\
You forgot to make an argument.
Premise 1) All people are bad people.
Premise 2) INSERT YOUR ARGUMENT HERE
Conclusion) Then there's no problem removing a bad person from a uterus.
\\ He lets sinners destroy others, even his own followers. Great guy that is.\\
Again, what's your standard for goodness? Who made you Pope of Morality?
\\There is no reasoning in religion.\\
Let the reader judge who is reasoning here and who is emoting. - Cory Coppock It's funny how you christians argue and debate. You have absolutely NO way of proving anything that you say.
- Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //Again, what's your standard for goodness? Who made you Pope of Morality? //
What's yours? Who are you to say what is moral and what is not? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //What if we really do deserve Hell, though? To NOT send us directly there would be loving, right?//
Earth is hell. It takes many lifetimes to get out of hell. - Rhology \\What's yours? Who are you to say what is moral and what is not?\\
Jesus is mine.
What's yours?
\\Earth is hell. It takes many lifetimes to get out of hell.\\
then what are you complaining about? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //Jesus is mine.
What's yours?//
Mine is the creator of all things.
Shiva and Devi - Rhology I'm not stupid; I know that you don't really believe in Shiva and Devi, but since you want to be intellectually dishonest, I'll play your game a bit longer.
Which one? Shiva or Devi?
How do you know what they have said? How do you know anything about them? - bossmanham So basically...UPMC is admitting that their morality is completely relative. So what was the initial complaint about then?
- Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. Shiva is the Supreme. Devi is his spouse. They have many, many, many different names and manifestations. They have a son, Kirshna. Together, with their son, they make up a trinity - in Hinduism. My daughter is a practicing Hindu. We have Hindu guides.
As I said, it takes many lifetimes to get out of hell (Earth). You are reborn over and over until your karma is cleansed and then you reach enlightenment - you join with the creator.
Shall i continue? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. Here is an article, written by my daughters instructor regarding Navaratri. Interestingly enough, it just came in my Email as I was writing my previous comment:
IM HRIM KLIM CHAMUNDAYAI VICCE - GLORY TO DIVINE MOTHER
The Devi Mahatmayam tells us about the struggle to attain heaven on the celestial and human levels. A king and a merchant who are both in exile learned from a sage that there exists a Supreme Power that when concentrated upon can grant us either worldly success or spiritual liberation. The sage narrates three ancient stories of how the Divine Mother manifested to reestablish the gods in heaven by slaying Madhu and Kaitabha, Mahisasura, and Shumbha and Nishumbha. On the human level the demons represent the uncontrolled ego which wants to seize and dominate the material world. The Divine Mother brings victory to the gods only when they surrender their ego and acknowledge that there is one Supreme Reality of which they are just a part. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa has taught that when man adopts in his sadhana the attitude of a baby cat clinging to its mother, then he is fit to receive the Divine grace.
Madhu and Kaitabha are slain when the Devi awakens Vishnu from his cosmic sleep. This in man’s spiritual quest reflects the arising of the Kundalini from the muladhara center. Next Mahisasura takes the forms of a buffalo, lion, man, and elephant but is still slain by the Devi’s spear. Mahisasura represents man’s changing emotions of the heart. Now Devi as the Kundalini in man’s spiritual evolution has arisen to the heart center. Finally Nishumbha and Shumbha are slain by the Devi to reestablish the gods in the kingdom of heaven. This means that the Kundalini has ascended within man to his thousand petalled head center and spiritual realization has dawned.
The ancient sages of India have always presented the scriptures with two meanings, first for the popular mind of the masses and then for the spiritual initiates. After listening to the Sage Medhas’ story of the Devi’s three cosmic exploits, the King Suratha and the merchant named Samadhi both worship the Devi for three years. Finally the Devi appears and grants the king his worldly kingdom and the merchant spiritual liberation. The choice is always up to us about what we want to attain. When prayed to, the Devi can either grant us seeming success in this world of Maya’s illusion or liberate us by spiritual knowledge that reveals the soul’s union with God. - bossmanham So who is the historical figure that rose from the dead to confirm their claim in Hinduism?
- Rhology If this world is Maya's illusion, how do you know that you know true things about Shiva and Devi?
- bossmanham Right. Hinduism makes no sense at all, is logically incoherent, and doesn't have the historical backing that Christianity has.
- bossmanham You can literally carve a god out of a block of wood, and then cook food over the fire you create out of those wood clippings while praying to that god....
- Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //One of the 300,000,000 contradictory gods?//
Read the article I posted. It explains that all the gods are actually just one. - Rhology Read that again. All the god***S*** are actually one.
So are there god***S***, or is there ONE god? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. You have your beliefs. I have mine. Yours is right for you. Mine is right for me.
- bossmanham Can you not see the problem that creates for your position on abortion? That women should have that right?
Can't you see the problem that presents for you when you want to condemn rape as wrong? - Rhology that's foolish talk, but OK, let's play that game a bit further.
JUST PRETEND (and this is not really what I believe, not even close) that Joe has a belief system that he is MORALLY OBLIGATED (not merely permitted) to go around murdering the holders of Facebook profiles that begin with the letter "U".
If he did so, would he be morally justified? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //If he did so, would he be morally justified?//
Absolutely not.
This is the type of reasoning that keeps religion out of government. It's why laws are not based on religion. That would be horrific. Can you imagine basing laws on the laws in the Bible or the Qu'ran? That would be a very bad idea.
You don't need religion to know what is right and what is wrong. Not all religious teaching are right, either. It is evident that harming other living breathing people is wrong.
Right and wrong/moral and immoral. - bossmanham But laws are based on something, right? They're informed by things we think are wrong. So on what basis do you say that certain things are wrong?
- Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. That is dependent on different factors. Normally, we think in terms of harm. If somebody is being harmed, they are being wronged, so the action doing the harm is wrong. Like drunk driving harms others, has been deemed wrong, and made illegal.
- Jenn Lynn 1. Who is Joe?
2. Religion is religion, and most spiritual texts (like the Bible and the Koran) are very similar. Krishna, Jesus, Horus, Mithra... born of virgins, crucified, to rise up three days later. How a person studies religion and practices itis their own prerogative. And isn't it unchristian-like to pass judgement on another person? Aren't christians suppose to accept and love everyone for who they are?
3. You know Rhology, it's really nice that you found an individual who loves and accepts the child she conceived from rape, but not everyone feels the same way she does. She is a representative for herself, as is every woman to her own-self.
4. Where in the Bible does Jesus or anyone speak out against abortion? You won't find the verse because it isn't there, did you know that abortion was mandated by the church even in the 1800s? Imagine that! Religion was the centerpiece of culture at that time and the Catholic Church was performing the medical procedures.
Here's a link: http://www.theopolitics.com/index.php?p=11&ID=54&d=1
- Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //And who says there's anything wrong with harming someone?//
You actually need somebody to tell you hurting somebody else is wrong? You don't have your own conscience?
Call it common sense, call it a conscience, call it intuition...
Animals display certain protective behaviors. Certain animals won't harm their own kind, especially their own family. Would you say animals have morals or is that just pure instinct? And if you say animals can tell right from wrong with instinct and without religion, then why can't humans? - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. // Certain animals won't harm their own kind, especially their own family.//
I need to correct myself. After giving birth, some animals will eat one of their babies or a number of their babies. There isn't anything wrong with the mother. This is normally because there is either something wrong with the baby or she has had too many babies. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //1. Who is Joe?//
Just made him up to have a name to go with some silly analogy upthread. - Rhology \\Normally, we think in terms of harm. \\
sure, of course we do, but the question is not "what is our normal thinking?" but rather "is our normal thinking CORRECT?"
Just asserting it's common sense doesn't get you anywhere. "Joe", my hypothetical guy, could just as easily assert that the opposite is actually common sense; how would you prove him wrong?
The answer is: We need to find an overarching authority that can tell us which of the many options is correct. That's what I've been asking you to provide, and so far you haven't.
\\ You don't have your own conscience?\\
My conscience also tells me Jesus is Lord. Yours apparently doesn't.
So our consciences can differ. The question, again, is which one is in the right, and how can we know what the right is?
\\And if you say animals can tell right from wrong with instinct and without religion, then why can't humans?\\
Calling protective behavior "right" merely begs the very question at hand. I'm not asking for your OPINION. I'm asking for your ARGUMENT.
\\After giving birth, some animals will eat one of their babies or a number of their babies. There isn't anything wrong with the mother. This is normally because there is either something wrong with the baby or she has had too many babies.\\
So why isn't THAT the normal behavior from which we should derive our moral standard? Why pick the one and not this one?
\\Just made him up to have a name to go with some silly analogy upthread.\\
To which analogy you have not give an answer.
I'm starting to think you straight up can't. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //I'm not asking for your OPINION. I'm asking for your ARGUMENT.//
Everything you've written is based on your opinion as it's based on religion. Religious opinions do not matter. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. //So why isn't THAT the normal behavior from which we should derive our moral standard?//
Because we have the ability of thinking at higher levels. You may need Jesus to tell you how to live your life the 'right' way. I do not. I can think for myself. TYVM - Jenn Lynn // We need to find an overarching authority that can tell us which of the many options is correct.//
Not every one is weak-minded enough to be able to be told what to think is right or wrong. No one needs anyone to tell them what to think, unfortunately however, religion does that for it's own self perseverance. If your conscience is Jesus, then you really should listen to his message, which says things like: don't pass judgement; love everyone equally; and if you see or have something bad done to you, turn the other cheek. Jesus did not preach "Everyone must do as I say or they are all going to burn in Hell for the sins I've died for"... On that note, not everyone recognizes Jesus as the messiah, so try to remember your religious-tolerance.
Also, if you didn't hear what Jesus said with your own ears, how do you know his message was carried through thousands of years of translation? The church hasn't been so christ-like, with things like the inquisition and crusades.
//My conscience also tells me Jesus is Lord. Yours apparently doesn't. The question, again, is which one is in the right, and how can we know what the right is?//
Each persons' conscience is right for the individual. Some people don't need a 'savior' or pastor or an effigy to pray at to know what they think is right or wrong, the sense of 'right and wrong' exists in the person's conscience... you know, that little bit of frontal lobe action we human beings have that signifies our sentience.
Jesus is the appropriate messiah for some, just as Krishna and Horus is for others. It is morally wrong of you to push your beliefs and religion onto others, and this idea also applies to abortion. If abortion is completely immoral to You, doesn't make it completely immoral for the rest of us. If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one! It's as simple as that. Who are you to decide for everyone how to think and what to do? I don't see a crown of thorns or gold on your head. - Jenn Lynn Would you want to put your opinion in on this thread Rhology? Maybe you can find some friends that can refute this argument:
http://www.facebook.com/AbolishHumanAbortion/posts/413138575418829?notif_t=like - Rhology \\Religious opinions do not matter.\\
Anyone can play this game.
Non-religious opinions do not matter.
See how you just killed the debate?
What's your ARGUMENT that the genetic fallacy is not actually a logical fallacy?
\\ You may need Jesus to tell you how to live your life the 'right' way. I do not. I can think for myself. \\
Congratulations. So, how do you know what's right? I've only asked this 5 times now. For the 6th time, please actually answer the question. - Rhology \\Not every one is weak-minded enough to be able to be told what to think is right or wrong\\
So how do YOU know what is right?
\\ If your conscience is Jesus, then you really should listen to his message, which says things like: don't pass judgement\\
That's false. You have a very shallow and incomplete understanding of the New Testament.
Please let me know what passage teaches what you have just said. Quote AT MINIMUM ten verses; they can all be consecutive if you like.
\\love everyone equally\\
1) Jesus never said "love everyone equally"; He said "love your neighbor as yourself".
2) I *AM* showing you love by trying to open your eyes to the truth. This is one way Jesus showed love, as well.
\\if you see or have something bad done to you, turn the other cheek.\\
Sure, that's fine. How is it relevant, though? If you think I'm debating here b/c I feel somehow insulted and have to retaliate, I'm happy to let you know that is not true.
\\ Jesus did not preach "Everyone must do as I say or they are all going to burn in Hell for the sins I've died for"\\
1) Jesus died for the sins of HIS PEOPLE, not ALL people.
2) Yes, He actually did say precisely the first part.
John 8:24 - "For this reason I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Many more I could cite. You don't have any idea what the Bible says. I recommend you do some reading, seriously.
\\ On that note, not everyone recognizes Jesus as the messiah, so try to remember your religious-tolerance.\\
And it would appear you don't know what "tolerance" means either.
\\Also, if you didn't hear what Jesus said with your own ears, how do you know his message was carried through thousands of years of translation?\\
And you don't know what "translation" means.
\\The church hasn't been so christ-like, with things like the inquisition and crusades.\\
And you don't know anything about history.
1) The Inq and Crusades were carried out by medieval Roman Catholics, AGAINST such people as my spiritual ancestors. I'm no Roman Catholic.
2) The Crusades were a military response to Islam's aggressive invasion.
3) Do you really think I don't acknowledge that Christians are sinners? What are you trying to say here?
\\Each persons' conscience is right for the individual.\\
So if a guy named Joe thinks its morally obligatory to rape and murder children, his conscience is correctly guiding him?
Don't avoid it; answer the question.
\\Jesus is the appropriate messiah for some, just as Krishna and Horus is for others\\
If that's true, then Jesus is the Messiah for none, b/c He thought He was the only one. If He was wrong, then there's no reason to follow Him.
\\It is morally wrong of you to push your beliefs and religion onto others\
1) Debating is not "pushing beliefs". It's DEBATING.
2) If debating = "pushing beliefs", you are guilty of it too, because you are telling me I'm wrong.
3) How do you know anything is morally wrong? Didn't you just tell me my conscience guides me aright? This is in accord with my conscience.
\\ Who are you to decide for everyone how to think and what to do? I don't see a crown of thorns or gold on your head.\
I'm nobody. I'm merely repeating the words of Jesus.
Yikes, you're frightfully ignorant. I urge you - speak less, read and think much, much more. You have made yourself out to be a fool in these last two comments. - Rhology \\ Would you want to put your opinion in on this thread Rhology? \\
No, since your argument is already wrecked.
http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/
http://www.abolishhumanabortion.com/2011/04/rebuttals-to-nobody-can-use-my-body.html - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. To the person who said Christianity was older than Hinduism...(as if that means Christianity is right and Hinduism is wrong...Paganism pre-dates Christianity as well...)
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/hinduism_predates_christianity.htm - Jenn Lynn I find that we are no longer debating about abortion but rather trying to open each others eyes to our own personal religious beliefs. Thanks goes to Rhology for taking the conversation off track, anyway, moving on!
1. // \\if you see or have something bad done to you, turn the other cheek.\\
Sure, that's fine. How is it relevant, though? If you think I'm debating here b/c I feel somehow insulted and have to retaliate, I'm happy to let you know that is not true. //
It's relevant to the original conversation, which was about abortion. If abortion is something that you don't agree with, then don't get one, and turn the other cheek when an individual does have one done. See how easy it can be?
2.// Jesus never said "love everyone equally"; He said "love your neighbor as yourself".//
If you loved all of your neighbors as you loved yourself, you would be loving everyone equally, riiiight?
3. //And you don't know what "translation" means.//
Translation, as in converting the text from Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek languages into English, Spanish, etc. Translation, as in making a document understood in a language other than that it was originally written in. What else could it mean? Oh there is the kind of translation that King James I did to suit his political pursuits, and what do you know, that's probably still the most popular form of the Bible.
4. I don't need to go into much detail, but you are wrong about the Church in it's stance for the Crusades. Do a little research in a History book and less in your Bible and you will find irrefutable facts.
//Do you really think I don't acknowledge that Christians are sinners? What are you trying to say here?//
I'm trying to say that if Christians 'know the right way to live' then they ought to practice what they preach, and have it straight before they try forcing their lifestyles and beliefs onto others. It's like you are saying, "Yeah, we have the secret password into Heaven, you just have to act like how we tell you not how we actually do"
5. // I'm no Roman Catholic.//
That may be, but Roman Catholic's follow the words of Jesus, they are His followers too after all... So what are you saying? That some followers of Jesus are holier better than others? Does Jesus picks favorites? Do tell!
6. // I'm merely repeating the words of Jesus.//
How? If you never even heard the man speak... Also don't you know most of the books in the Bible were written hundreds of years *after* Jesus 'lived. On that note, the New Testament is based off the Torah (or Old Testament), so do explain how Jesus wrote it!!
7. //If that's true, then Jesus is the Messiah for none, b/c He thought He was the only one. If He was wrong, then there's no reason to follow Him.//
He was wrong, there is no reason to follow him. I double-dog dare you to research how similar the stories are between just Jesus and Horus are. I also dare you to not say something like "It was the devil's work!! The devil used a time machine and set up several religions that were similar to Christianity before Jesus came just to fool you!"
8.// Debating is not "pushing beliefs". It's DEBATING.//
^ True. Now what's your stance on Abortion? Can you back your argument up without using your religion?
Monday, October 29, 2012
On Mourdock's remark about God and rape
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