See if you can count how many challenges and rebuttals he leaves unanswered or simply dismisses and ignores. This is the prevalent attitude with these quasi-papists.
- Larry Bray Toby Harmon, you go out preaching the gospel....and yet you are not an Elder...please show me in Scripture where someone other than an Elder is called to preach.
Larry Bray If God has appointed Elders for His Church...and if Elders are to "oversee" the things of the Church, then how can you justify not having Elders in your church?
Venchenza Settles Hey Larry Bray, I'm out at the mills sharing the Gospel with women who came to kill their child. Because I'm not an elder (which is not biblical in anyway shape or form....) does that mean I shouldn't be doing that? I'm asking...- Larry Bray The great commission was not given to the general disciples of Christ but to the Apostles only. This is evidence enough that all Christians are not called to preach.
- Larry Bray Venchenza Settles, all are called to share the Gospel, but that is much different from preaching.
Rho Logy Larry Bray,
With all due respect, brother, please let me correct these things.
\\Scripture says that we ought not cease from preaching: Act 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.\\
Citing what happenED in Acts as a prescription for today is an exegetical fallacy.
\\Toby's church says that they have no Elders or Deacons:\\
They don't have one NOW. They DID until that elder admitted he was unfit and left the church.
There were three churches and other examples in Acts that didn't have elders, too.
\\Scripture says that we are to have elders in every church:
Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you--\\
But don't you see that you need to prove that Paul meant to talk to everyone and not just Titus in that?
\\A true Church has historically been defined as one that\\
With all due respect, was the church at Laodicaea a true or false church?
Why does Jesus call them a true church?
Also, push back 500 years - someone could have told Martin Luther that "A true Church has historically been defined as one that submits to the Pope" or something.
\\It is impossible to rightly preach the word if they have no sermons and no Elders to preach.\\
But how do you know that?
\\It is impossible to rightly carry out discipline when there is no ecclesiastical authority invested in the Elders.\\
Elders are mentioned ZERO times in all of the NT's church discipline passages.
ZERO.
\\And it is impossible to rightly administer the sacraments apart from Elders administering them.\\
Please demonstrate from the NT that the sacraments were ONLY administered by elders.
Why did Philip baptise the eunuch in Acts 8? He was a proto-deacon.
\\The great commission was not given to the general disciples of Christ but to the Apostles only. This is evidence enough that all Christians are not called to preach.\\
That is not true.
Look at Luke 24. It was more than the apostles.
Acts 1 - same deal.
Also, the apostles are all dead. You don't believe in apostolic succession, do you?
\\This is evidence enough that all Christians are not called to preach.\\
What does "called" mean, here, and what NT passages use that language that way?
- Rho Logy \\all are called to share the Gospel, but that is much different from preaching.\\
Preaching is a subset of sharing the Gospel.
Are you using "preaching" here as a synonym for "being an elder", or for something more along the lines of evangelistic open-air type preaching? - Rho Logy \\if Elders are to "oversee" the things of the Church, then how can you justify not having Elders in your church?\\
They had one and the guy left. Now they are praying about how to proceed. No point in laying on hands hastily, as it were.
Can you understand that, Larry? You may not agree, but can you at least see how it's not wanton disobedience? Can you be more open-minded than Speed and Pittman, and refuse to sin against brethren? 
T. Russell Hunter The Abolitionist Society of Norman is an organization. I am a member of it. We adopt the ideology of abolitionism that is shared, spread, and symbolized by "AHA" (the five tenets, two modes, three essentials, seven stage strategy, etc), and we are a local autonomous society comprised of Christians who are members of various local fellowships.
We are all working together and carrying out this work in the name of Christ and trying to be consistent Christians living in a culture that murders our pre born neighbors and fellow image bearers.
You may believe that Christians are only allowed to minister within the confines of their church building and that they cannot join with other believers who are members of the one same body of Christ… and you may have elevated the local church to such a place that Christians who are members of one local church are not allowed to do anything with members of another local church, but that is something that many people will disagree with. Jesus Christ foremost among them.
There really is one body and one bride. There is real only one Church. While it is clearly and beautifully the case that the geographically separated local fellowships of believers who function according to the guidelines and qualifications set out in the new testament by the spirit of God regarding how they are to meet together and what they are to be in the lives of one another and to the local culture that they are in, are part of God's design to salt and light this death addicted, dark and spoiling culture, it is very clear from the Word that Christians from one local fellowship can communicate, instruct, learn from, be exhorted by, be encouraged by, other local assemblies and be joined together in labor for the gospel.
It is weird that you would think it worthwhile to attack organized abolitionism (societies sharing a vision and strategy) and spend all this time trying to paint this society with what that society said and all that, and I cannot follow the logic you are laying down though I am very familiar with it (I hear it from lost people who try to tell me that the local church I am a part of is full of pedophiles and prosperity preachers because some catholic priests touch boys and some dudes on TV require donations as a proof of faith).
Are you trying to say that because every abolitionist everywhere is not perfect then all abolitionists anywhere and everywhere are spreading a false gospel? Again, I hear this from lost people trying to brand all Christians as hypocrites, liars, and thieves, but I just don't see why you think that works in regard to people who adopt a certain set of biblical tenets and strategies regarding the abolition of abortion.
But… I do believe that if you would like to get a spot blogging on Gospel Spam or appearing in PodCasts with those guys etc and so forth, attacking AHA and spreading false witness, dissension, and division against them will put you on the fast track. Just press on doing what you are doing here and you will get your reward!- Venchenza Settles For what it's worth --- there's a lot of men on the Gospel Spam that I did not care for, but Larry Bray I enjoyed your posts and things you had to say at most. I wasn't willing to take fire to the entire camp over the disagreements and bad experiences I had with of some of the men on that page.
- Rho Logy Of course they would. Everyone claims it. So, the argument is the main thing. And they've lost the argument over and over again.
- Rho Logy I'll give you four examples where their arguments have been demolished.
http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/.../justin-edwards...
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/.../do-abolitionists...
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/.../a-response-to...
http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/.../there-is-nothing-that...
Where are their counterarguments? Their refutations? Nowhere. They fled the debate field so they could snipe at us privately and behind closed doors, PMing people in secret to slander us and slow our work.
Marissa N Mark Have not read all the comments, but in fairness to AHA, and with regard to it being an "organization" and that being unbiblical are not Crown Rights and The Herald Society also para-church organizations? I not actively involved of any the above organizations/movements, but it seems an awful lot like the folks associated with BAHM engaging in a whole lot of "Do as I say, not as I do" rubbish, and don't want to be questioned about anything, but make up the rules and define terms as they go along. Not Kosher.- Rho Logy They'll just say "but they are approved by our church elders".
But then they won't allow abolitionists to say the same thing.
And they don't prove from the Scripture that Christians' activities are restricted to what their elders have explicitly approved. Their ecclesiology is a mess. - Larry Bray \There were three churches and other examples in Acts that didn't have elders, too.\\
What are the churches in Scripture that had no Elders? - Rho Logy Here, Larry.
http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/.../there-is-nothing-that...
Acts 11:19-25 - Barnabas goes and helps preach the Gospel in Antioch, and yet doesn't stay to establish elders. Rather, he leaves to look for Paul. And yet there comes to be a church in Antioch (as soon as Acts 15:30). How?
Acts 13:44-52 - Paul and Barnabas are driven out of Pisidian Antioch after only about a week.
According to the qualifications for elders in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3, an elder can't be a new convert. I suppose we are to assume that no church existed in Pisidian Antioch at that time? Just... a ragtag bunch of people who loved Jesus?
Acts 17:32-18:1 - Paul sees converts in Athens but doesn't stay to train any elders.
The Ethiopian eunuch, converted by Philip on the way back to Ethiopia, could never have been a member of a true church, at least not for the years until someone in the chain of ordination running back to the apostles also made it down to Ethiopia to be the elder.
- Larry Bray quote: \\It is impossible to rightly preach the word if they have no sermons and no Elders to preach.\\
But how do you know that?
Response: How do i know that without preaching they can't have proper preaching? - Rho Logy Oh, also, the churches on Crete before Titus got there.
Paul tells him LATER to GO BACK and appoint elders. - Rho Logy \\How do i know that without preaching they can't have proper preaching?\\
Who says that only elders can preach? Where is that in the NT? - Rho Logy You said "impossible to **rightly** preach...if no elders".
I question that. I also question the notion that it's only OK if elders preach. - Larry Bray quote: Please demonstrate from the NT that the sacraments were ONLY administered by elders.
Why did Philip baptise the eunuch in Acts 8? He was a proto-deacon.
Response:
Mat 28, wherein lies the great commission, was given to the apostles only and not to all of the disciples indiscriminately....and therein we find the command to baptize...thus it (as a sacrament) is not for independent Christians but rather entrusted to the Church as a body to be administered by her officers.
The "mysteries of God" are not given to each individual Christian but rather to those entrusted with such, the Elders, the word itself signifying something divine that is represented by something common (signs and figures)...
1Cor 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
The context does not lend itself to be referring to the Apostles, unless one is willing to argue that Apollos was an apostle (1 Cor 3:22). - Larry Bray \\They had one and the guy left. Now they are praying about how to proceed. No point in laying on hands hastily, as it were. \\
There are more problems with the "church" that not having Elders...seems that you are not willing to give reasons for the other points that i brought up. - Larry Bray \\You may believe that Christians are only allowed to minister within the confines of their church building \\
Nice strawman - Larry Bray \\It is weird that you would think it worthwhile to attack organized abolitionism \\
My "attacks" have nothing to do with abolition and is much more limited in scope than you make out here. - Rho Logy \\Mat 28, wherein lies the great commission, was given to the apostles only and not to all of the disciples indiscriminately\\
1) Luke 24 and Acts 1, though.
2) The apostles are all dead today.
3) The Great Commission does not mention the Lord's Table.
\\but rather entrusted to the Church as a body to be administered by her officers.\\
Where is that in the text? Be specific, please.
\\The "mysteries of God" are not given to each individual Christian but rather to those entrusted with such, the Elders\\
Chapter and verse, please.
\\1Cor 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.\\
Speaking for Paul and his traveling buddies. Not "elders". Paul wasn't an elder.
So if it's not Apollos either... maybe it's more than just "officers" of the church, whatever that means.
\\There are more problems with the "church" that not having Elders...seems that you are not willing to give reasons for the other points that i brought up\\
I didn't want to overwhelm you. I was trying to be respectful.
I am happy to address any of the problems you think you have. However, since you put "church" in scare quotes, it would appear that your mind is probably already made up, and that's not right for someone who says they serve Jesus. You ought to seek the whole truth from brethren before passing judgment, Larry. - Larry Bray Marissa N Mark, Men who are part of AHA publicly preach without any church oversight....that does not happen with Crown Rights, etc.
Men who are part of AHA have preached an errant Gospel, a Gospel that condemns churches who are not protesting outside of abortion clinics as "have failed to be Christian"...that doesn't happen with Crown Rights, etc.
preaching, sacraments, etc. belong to the Church not to organizations outside of the Church. - Larry Bray For those trying to answer me with blog links....i don't have time to read through blogs and have blog-link discussions.
- Rho Logy \\Men who are part of AHA publicly preach without any church oversight\\
Name one.
It's not true of Toby. Or me. Or anyone I know.
\\preaching, sacraments, etc. belong to the Church not to organizations outside of the Church.\\
Yes, to Christians, the invisible church.
\\i don't have time to read through blogs and have blog-link discussions.\\
But you have time to pass rushed judgments on brethren and call churches "not-churches".
Larry, are you sure your heart is right? - Rho Logy \\Men who are part of AHA have preached an errant Gospel, a Gospel that condemns churches who are not protesting outside of abortion clinics as "have failed to be Christian"\\
Did you know we made a whole website about the www.churchrepent.com project?
And abolition is more like Law. The Gospel ENABLES and FREES and DRIVES us to abolition. And when people disobey the law so they can focus on their lawncare and their sweet lighting system and wearing skinny jeans w/o loving their neighbor... that IS failing to be Christian.
Larry, do you realise that you would condemn as false churches the chruches outside of which we have exhorted and rebuked? Lifechurch.tv? A liberal Vineyard church whose pastor is buddy-buddy with 0bama and has done fundraisers for him? Liberal United Methodist churches who love abortion?
- Larry Bray \\Oh, also, the churches on Crete before Titus got there.
Paul tells him LATER to GO BACK and appoint elders.\\
Paul was there before Titus, and thus they had an Elder in Paul...when Paul left Titus stayed behind precisely because it would not be right to leave the churches without an Elder, and Titus acted as that Elder (as an Evangelist) as he worked to set up Elders in each particular church.
I don't see the particular church that i posted about as being under any Elder. - Rho Logy \\when Paul left Titus stayed behind precisely because it would not be right to leave the churches without an Elder\\
You're quite mixed up. Titus didn't stay behind in Crete. He was SENT THERE.
\\Titus acted as that Elder (as an Evangelist) as he worked to set up Elders in each particular church.\\
Even on this point your position fails. He was to appoint elders in each particular CHURCH. So there were no elders, BUT THERE WAS A CHURCH.
Can you see that now?
\\I don't see the particular church that i posted about as being under any Elder.\\
Yes, you're right. You're going backwards. We already discussed that, Larry. I have raised several rebuttals to your interpretation of that fact. - Rho Logy Larry, please stop and take a breath here.
You have said that you don't have time to read articles. But that's the only way you can find the facts about this issue. As it is, you're passing hasty judgment on brethren already, based on ignorance and the poison you've heard from Pittman, Speed, and Miano.
Think for yourself, brother. Take some time and take in our material. Take the time to understand before you start throwing around words like "church" in scare quotes. That is wicked of you to do, Larry. Don't sin against us. - Larry Bray \\You said "impossible to **rightly** preach...if no elders".
I question that. I also question the notion that it's only OK if elders preach.\\
That's fine to question it as long as you get the answers to your questions from Scripture.
How can the office of Elder be one of oversight (1 Tim 3:1; Titus 1:7) and yet in one of the most important aspects of the Church (preaching) they are not to oversee? - Rho Logy \\How can the office of Elder be one of oversight (1 Tim 3:1; Titus 1:7) and yet in one of the most important aspects of the Church (preaching) they are not to oversee?\\
I never stated otherwise. How do you get from overseeing to "they're the only ones that are to preach"? Chapter and verse, please. - Rho Logy 1) Where in the NT do you find that ONLY elders can oversee?
2) It is true that Door of Hope does not currently have an elder.
3) And yet I have visited there many times and know them all well. They are far more connected with each other and far more obedient to the "one another"s of the NT than any church I have ever seen in my whole life. Whereas many other churches disobey those things. I don't see you passing hasty judgment on those churches... or do you? - Larry Bray \\Even on this point your position fails. He was to appoint elders in each particular CHURCH. So there were no elders, BUT THERE WAS A CHURCH.
Can you see that now? \\
And they were under the oversight of an overseer (Elder) - Titus. - Rho Logy 1) How could they be? Titus was one man on a large island, with no car and no email.
2) They were churches BEFORE TITUS APPOINTED ELDERS.
3) Titus was not an elder. He was an elder-appointer.
Can you see NOW how your position fails? - Larry Bray quote: I never stated otherwise. How do you get from overseeing to "they're the only ones that are to preach"? Chapter and verse, please.
My response: Different issue....i am saying that folks like Toby, who preach, have no Elder overseeing their preaching. - Rho Logy \\.i am saying that folks like Toby, who preach, have no Elder overseeing their preaching.\\
Yes, you are right. And I have already responded to that.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Larry Bray To preach that unless you are demonstrating at abortion clinics you are not Christian is a different Gospel.....pretty simple stuff, really.
- Rho Logy \\To preach that unless you are demonstrating at abortion clinics you are not Christian is a different Gospel\\
Nobody has ever said that. If you think Toby meant that, you are mistaken.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Larry Bray It wasn't Toby, it was Russell. And yes, it was said. That's the problem with having no biblical oversight.
- Rho Logy \\ And yes, it was said\|
When? Quote, please.
\\That's the problem with having no biblical oversight.\\
1) Correlation =/= causation, Larry. You ought to know that.
2) And please prove from Scripture that oversight ONLY COMES from elders.
3) Also please prove from Scripture that oversight = church but lack of accountability among members does = not-a-church.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Venchenza Settles Rho Logy he's talking about the wake up church video with T. Russell Hunter in it. That's not what Russell said in that video. I've called Russell to this thread now and you have yet to directly ask him anything.
- Rho Logy \\That's not what Russell said in that video. I\\
I know that, but I want Larry to admit that he spoke wrongly, thus slandering a brother in Christ. - Rho Logy Yes, but NOT FOR THE REASON YOU SAID.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Larry Bray "you have not failed to be pro-life, you have failed to be Christian"
Unless we are fighting for the same issue that he is we are not Christian. That is not the Gospel. - Rho Logy I am hopeful that any reader can see that I am really trying to not only help Larry understand that which he is judging in unrighteousness and ignorance, but also calling him to repent of his dangerously-close flirtation with slander of brethren, and to bear fruit in keeping with repentance by taking a time out and learning what we ACTUALLY say.
- Rho Logy \\Unless we are fighting for the same issue that he is we are not Christian. That is not the Gospel.\\
1) No one ever claimed it is the Gospel.
2) You misunderstand him AGAIN.
3) Someone who actually understands the Scripture would not set Gospel and obedience in opposition as you are doing here. Perhaps you don't see it.
\\It's not slander when i use direct quotes.\\
My head just exploded.
I have shown you over and over again already how you are mistaken. You have not responded. You have explicitlty said you lack time to read up on the issue. Yet you persist in this thread.
Stop it, Larry. Please. Please. Please.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Rho Logy Instead of quoting the video, just answer my questions and challenges, Larry.
Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging? - Larry Bray I never set the Gospel and obedience as contrary to one another...but it is wrong to set up your particular ministry as the one that all must be involved with to be counted Christian.
- Rho Logy Larry, did you see my request above to take a time out and actually learn about what you are hastily judging?
- Larry Bray I'm judging him by what he said, and judging his lack of accountability to oversight by the fact that there are no overseers in his church.
- Venchenza Settles Larry Bray yeah you have. You took ONE thing he said and ran with it. But you ain't got time to talk about EVERYTHING Russell said in the video...
- Venchenza Settles Perverting the Gospel?! Are you kidding me...... What a staunch claim for someone who won't even take the time to read or watch anything.
- Larry Bray I did watch it...i already told you that. and i've read the different websites that i told you about. Just because i won't discuss things through linking to blogs doesn't mean i won't take the time to read anything.
Elizabeth Clouser Sacks Sorry to jump in, but I've been reading this entire thread with mounting dismay. Larry Bray, you yourself posted on your own facebook wall the following:
"The reason we forsake God's law is because we don't believe it's good. This lack of faith in God's goodness is practical atheism - Pro 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law."
So it is ok for you to point out the troubles in forsaking God's law, but when AHA exhorts brothers and sisters to good works in Christ, it is perverting the gospel? How is what you posted on your own wall any different? I am sad to see this kind of division and stubborn response to the pleading of your brothers and sisters in the church.- Rho Logy How many times did i ask Larry to stop and think, Elizabeth Clouser Sacks? Ten? And he never even gave me the courtesy of a reply.
It is what I have come to expect from the Gospel Spam crowd.Rho Logy //Larry Bray
Nothing makes up for perverting the Gospel.//
Thank God nobody did that. But Larry certainly did a great impression of a guy slandering slaves of Jesus based on ignorance.
No comments:
Post a Comment