The Authority of the (Local) Church, Part 1

The assertion that churches or church leaders carry authority is common among today's Reformedigelical establishment, and, interestingly, is used in much the same way as papist* and conciliarist** plebeians and their overlords/hierarchs to support their claims and counter-claims of ecclesiastical ascendancy. For as much noise as modern Western Reformedigelicals like to make about the Protestant Reformation, their incessant references to "the authority of the (local) church" and "the authority of the elders" when poked in just the right spot and when divorced from a context of engaging in apologetics against papists and conciliarists can be very disturbing, as in doing so they much resemble papist and conciliarist opponents of the Reformation. Are these claims to "authority" and such biblically justified?

In assessing this question, two important questions must be dealt with:
1) Does the Bible employ the word "authority", and if so, how?
2) Does the Bible employ the concept of authority, and if so, how?

The intent of this article is to examine the first question mostly and the second in some ways, leaving more of the second for a later time. Let us examine the words and their contexts that are translated using "authority" or similar words, or which are claimed to express the teaching that "authority" rests in elders/churches and should be exercised in the way that it is claimed they can and should exercise it. Let us begin our examination in this article with Strong's number 1849 - exousia (ἐξουσία). The word is used over 100 times in the New Testament and the KJV translates it with "power" in two-thirds of its occurrences. During my own survey of each occurrence in its context, my classification is that the words are used to express the following ideas:

1. Apostles have authority to cast out demons
2. Authority in a confusing sense (from 1 Corinthians 11:10)
3. Authority in a general sense
4. Authority in a household, slaves
5. Authority in the sense of rulers
6. Become children of God
7. God has authority
8. Jesus has authority
9. Liberty
10. Military/governmental authority
11. Paul has authority to build up
12. Power in a general sense
13. Power of apostles to impart the Holy Spirit
14. Power of darkness
15. Right in a general sense

It is outside the scope of this article to attempt to forward more specific details than these about this word. Suffice it to say that G1849 is actually never used in reference to anything remotely related to church or so-called church officers possessing "authority". The closest categories to this concept would seem to be the fact that the apostles possessed authority/power to impart the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:19, the only NT occurrence in this category) and the fact that the Apostle Paul possessed authority to build up believers (2 Corinthians 10:8, 13:10). This latter point is of course useless to the modern authoritarian unless paired with a robust doctrine of apostolic succession whereby Paul's authority transfers through the generations to 21st-century church officers.

Thus "exousia" gives no support whatsoever to the concept of "church authority" but this is merely the end of the beginning. Let us move now to other NT words that use the same root and deal in similar ideas.

Don't Be Like the Rulers of the Gentiles: Matthew and Mark

Matthew 20:25-28 -

But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it (G2634 - katakyrieuō, κατακυριεύω) over them, and their great men exercise authority (G2715 - katexousiazō, κατεξουσιάζω) over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:42-45 -

Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it (G2634 - katakyrieuō, κατακυριεύω) over them; and their great men exercise authority (G2715 - katexousiazō, κατεξουσιάζω) over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Note how the second word (2715) of interest in this pericope has as its root exousia. Here, in the context of inter-Christian relationship, the Lord Jesus instructs His apostles that their posture toward each other is not to be like that of the Gentile rulers, who lord it over and exercise authority over the peons. This is a very important point. Whatever these words mean, they characterise the precise opposite of the way in which Christians are to act toward each other.

Given that, the first word (2634) enriches our understanding even more, as the other two NT occurrences are Acts 19:17 and 1 Peter 5:3.
In Acts 19:17, the possessed man engages in katakyrieuō against (the NASB renders this "subdued") the seven sons of Sceva.
1 Peter 5:1-4 is even more interesting:

Therefore, I exhort the elders older men among you, as your fellow elder (older man) and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over (katakyrieuō) those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders older men; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for "God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble".

First, a note on the way I have rendered the passage using "elders older men": the NASB like other translations is inconsistent in its treatment of the Greek word used there, and interestingly translates it with more honesty in 1 Timothy 5:1, where, just as here in 1 Peter 5, the author is drawing a parallel between how those of differing ages ought to act with respect to each other, rather than indicating some sort of ecclesiastical official relationship. The NASB correctly indicates the fact that the passage is referring to older men vs younger men and older women vs younger women. 1 Peter 5 likewise mentions younger men, and with no other contextual mandate to change the translation, the English rendering ought to be consistent; thus "older men".

This passage is often appealed to, however, by authoritarians as a prooftext for the authority of elders. They point to words like "shepherd" and "oversight", which deserve attention at some later point in time. For now, though, let us note that in this passage supposedly about "elder authority", Peter specifically declines to bolster such a notion, reminding the reader about how the Lord Jesus told him and the other eleven that "it is not this way among you". They do not exercise authority among Christians. So whatever "oversight" and "shepherd" mean in this context, if anyone should assert that they have anything to do with "authority", they have all their work in front of them. Peter uses the very word that Jesus used and which carries a strong relation to the word most clearly translatable into English as "authority", and denies that is what anyone ought to be doing. As a helpful reminder, he drops an Old Testament quote, commanding all to be humble rather than proud, for allocating oneself authority is most unquestionably an exercise in pride, especially when Jesus kept saying stuff like "serve others", "don't take the best seats", "it is better to serve than to be served", and "don't call other people 'Father'".

Don't Be Like the Rulers of the Gentiles: Luke

Luke 22:25-27 -

(Jesus) said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over (G2961 - kyrieuō, κυριεύω) them; and those who have authority over (G1850 - exousiazō, ἐξουσιάζω) them are called ‘Benefactors.’ But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves."

Note basically the same words are used in this passage, in a slightly different form. They are used elsewhere in the NT, though, so let us take a look.

2961 is used in the following texts:

• Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
• Romans 7:1 - Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
• Romans 14:9 - For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
• 2 Corinthians 1:24 - Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.
• 1 Timothy 6:15 - which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords...

1850 (reminder: the same root word as 1849, exousia) is used in:

• 1Co 6:12 - All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
  1 Co 7:4 - The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

What do we see from this passage in Luke 22? Whatever it looks like to be mastered by sin, to be under the jurisdiction of the law, to be under the Lord Jesus, and whatever it looks like to have authority over the body of one's spouse is the opposite of how any Christian ought to relate to any other Christian, according to Luke 22. Note also how 2 Corinthians 1:24 contains Paul's explicit denial that he would act this way toward anyone else - Paul, an apostle of the Lord who wrote half the New Testament.

Note also Jesus' reference to the disingenuous way in which Gentile overlords demand to be addressed. He says they insist on being called "Benefactors", just like authoritarians insist on disingenuously referring to their ideas of elders/pastors as "servant leaders" and simultaneously demanding that all acknowledge the authority of the same to tell the Christians under them how to believe and how to act.

"With All (Commandment)" - Titus 2

Another candidate for the distinction of authoritarian prooftext is Titus 2:15, which verse the NASB renders thus:

These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority (G2003 - epitagē, ἐπιταγή). Let no one disregard you.

Let us examine the way the NASB renders the other NT occurrences of this Greek word.

• Romans 16:26 - but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
• 1 Corinthians 7:6 - But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
• 1 Corinthians 7:25 - Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.
• 2 Corinthians 8:8 - I am not speaking this as a command, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity of your love also.
• 1 Timothy 1:1 - Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
• Titus 1:3 - but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,
• Titus 2:15 - These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

It is unclear how such a verse buttresses the position against which we are arguing here. Notice first how Titus is specially designated for the task in Crete by the Apostle Paul because of a specific situation - a domination of false teachers and widespread confusion about the actual content of the apostolic message. Titus was given particular authority --yes, authority-- for this mission, by a guy who actually has authority (and yet still disdained using it to lord it over people - see above comments on 2 Corinthians 1:24) by virtue of being a legitimate prophet of God during a time when people were receiving prophetic revelation to write Scripture. But nobody's pastor today was given authority by a prophet, very few modern situations are particularly analogous to Titus' in Crete, and even if they are, the argument still falls apart because Titus was supposed to correct doctrine with the tool of the apostolic message, not make stuff up from his own "authority" - delegated authority to repeat what God has already said. Thus the authority crucially rests in the message, not the messenger.

Further, "with all authority" is a pretty questionable way to render a word that six other times was translated as "command(ment)". It is even more questionable when one remembers that the same word is translated "commandment" in Titus 1:5. The problem is not that there is some enormous difference between the concept of "commandment" and "authority" or that "authority" wouldn't also fit in Titus 1:5. The problem is that the idea the word expresses is not what the modern ecclesiastical authoritarians mean when they say "church authority". Thus a misleading translation leads to poor conclusions that actually contradict other passages that are not poorly translated.

Conclusion

Thus upon biblical examination, we find the phrases "church authority", "authority of the local church" (which local church, by the way? I always wonder that), and "authority of the pastor(s)/elder(s)" to be without biblical support. The last stands for the authoritarians would seem to be Hebrews 13:17, which passage is covered in detail here and found to be of no help to the authoritarian position, and 1 Thessalonians 5:13, which uses the word proïstēmi (προΐστημι). I intend to examine this word and its usage in a later article. In the meantime, please stop using those phrases and stick to biblical terminology when discussing these matters. They are too important to either make up terms out of thin air or to use language loaded with such heavy baggage. Ad fontes!



*Also known as Roman Catholics, but of course they are not catholic. "Papist" or "Romanist" is a preferable general appellation.
**Also known as Eastern Orthodox, but of course they are not orthodox. "Conciliarist" or "oriental/eastern conciliarist" is a preferable general appellation.

Leaven of the Pharisees - "authority" "sending you out"

A faithful abolitionist and his family sacrificed of his time and energy to warn and preach the truth and the Gospel to attendees of a recent event in his area put on by a Word of Faith heretic.

He then posted some pictures and stories about his experience on Facebook. The following conversation ensued.


Pharisee Disciple: Hmmmm. Still trying to discern the motive here. Are y'all sent out there by a local pastor or any church government or authority?
September 7 at 9:23am

The Abolitionist In Question: The motive is love for God's Church. There are probably some sheep that are going in there that have ears to hear. We are there for them.
As far as being sent: we have King Jesus and all of His commands as authority enough as our dispatch orders.
#ChurchRepent
September 7 at 9:51am

A Former Abolitionist Who Has Ingested the Leaven of the Pharisees: His commands are to love one another assuming we are part of a governing body that He established.
Yesterday at 1:26am

Me: All believers are sent out by the authority of Jesus Christ. No other authority or sending is necessary.
A better question is: Why weren't other Christians and churches out there doing the same?
23 hours ago

Me: Where does the NT say anything about a GOVERNING body?
23 hours ago

That a Christian Assembly or Congregation has the Right and Power to Judge all Teaching and to Call, Appoint, and Dismiss Teachers, Established and Proven by Scripture

First, it is necessary to know where and what the Christian congregation is, so that men do not engage in human affairs (as the non-Christians were accustomed to do) in the name of the Christian congregation. The sure mark by which the Christian congregation can be recognized is that the pure gospel is preached there. For just as the banner of an army is the sure sign by which one can know what kind of lord and army have taken to the field, so, too, the gospel is the sure sign by which one knows where Christ and his army are encamped. We have the sure promise of this from God in Isaiah 55[:10–11], "My word" (says God) "that goes forth from my mouth shall not return empty to me; rather, as the rain falls from heaven to earth, making it fruitful, so shall my word also accomplish everything for which I sent it." Thus we are certain that there must be Christians wherever the gospel is, no matter how few and how sinful and weak they may be. Likewise, where the gospel is absent and human teachings rule, there no Christians live but only pagans, no matter how numerous they are and how holy and upright their life may be.

Thus it undeniably follows that bishops, religious foundations, monasteries, and all who are associated with them have long since ceased to be Christians or Christian congregations, even though they have claimed they are more entitled to this name than anyone else. For whoever recognizes the gospel sees, hears, and understands that even today they insist on their human teachings, have driven the gospel far away from themselves, and are still driving it away. That is why one should consider pagan and worldly what these people do and pretend.

AHA Blog: Loving the Church - An Initial Reply to Justin Edwards

If the past is any indication, this will engender some whining on Facebook and zero substantive responses.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2014/05/loving-church-initial-reply-to-justin.html

This kind of thing can just slip right by

From here, writing in reference to CS Lewis, Murphy says:

Not to mention that he wasn’t a Pastor or holding some office requiring Christians to really heed his words, he was an entirely different category.

What are we, Roman Catholics? Yikes. Neither John Piper nor anyone else is a member of some sort of Magisterium.
Let this be a brief reminder that we need to examine carefully our wording, and these days it's really important not to put elders and such on a pedestal like that.

The Preacher's Authority

"(A preacher) has authority only to the degree that he correctly interprets and clearly proclaims the truths of Scriptures." -- Paul Washer

Just thought that quote was worth mentioning aloud.

Pastors

It has been said that no pastor in America could possibly endorse the Church Repent project.

Even if no pastor endorsed it, that would make no difference as to the need or justification for the project, absent a biblical argument justifying opposition to it (which the critics have been unsuccessful in providing). However, I just wanted to say that there are two pastors in America that explicitly have endorsed it. Just sayin'. The Spirit of God is at work.

(Edit: I didn't discover until later that Bob Enyart teaches at least one heretical doctrine (Open Theism) and is heterodox in other areas. Oops. But there are now more than him anyway.)

"Where is the church?"

There are those who oppose the ChurchRepent project, such as those men behind "Babies Are Murdered Here". In the first part of the trailer, you can see one of them preaching "I'm talking about the church! Where  is the church?" I guess he's  just like "Where is the church? What? They don't want to do anything? OK, never mind!"

We actually want to love the churches of America, however, and plead with them to repent if they are in sin. Turns out that they are, by and large. So, the loving thing to do would be to go to them and show them enough love to try to turn them to holiness, to the graces and blessings of Jesus Christ. If they resist at first, we're still willing to try to help.  The men of BAMH and those who agree with them want, I guess, to retreat and just do their own thing at that point, and chuck mud at those more loving than they.

I posted this video from the admin account at the Abolish Human Abortion FB page and a pastor started to engage on it. The discussion that followed is instructive, so I reproduce it here.

• Jeremy Lundmark If I may, and I don't have to, Jon Speed is a pastor... and has the authority to call upon his church to move in this area and has every right (biblically) to point to the rest of the church's apathy to bring his church under conviction in this area.AHA has no such authority. If AHA members want to connect to local assemblies, become members, and call their fellow brothers and sisters to repentance in that local assembly... fine... but you have no authority over the local church.
  
  If the AHA can provide Scripture that demonstrates that the church and it's leadership should be submitted to an organization called "AHA" then by all means we'll submit. Until then, I believe the Scriptures still say that believers are to be under the authority of a local assembly and its leadership. For better for worse, that's what Christ has ordained... not the "AHA" or any other "parachurch" organization.

  16 hours ago · Like · 4
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  Abolish Human Abortion It is not at all about authority or submitting. It is about following the two greatest commandments. Love God, love neighbor. Are we not allowed to proclaim the message of Christ himself to anyone and everyone?

  16 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3
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  Rho Logy \\has the authority to call upon his church\\
  
  Biblically speaking, Pastor =/= priest. Pastors have authority insofar as they accurately teach the Word of God. He has authority to call his church to obey Jesus. If he's wrong, his authority is irrelevant 'cause he doesn't have any.
  
  \\AHA has no such authority\\
  
  http://churchrepent.com/objection-4
  
  \\ If AHA members want to connect to local assemblies, become members, and call their fellow brothers and sisters to repentance in that local assembly... fine... but you have no authority over the local church. \\
  
  You are why we created www.churchrepent.com I pray you'll read and be edified. I am being 100% sincere.
  
  \\If the AHA can provide Scripture that demonstrates that the church and it's leadership should be submitted to an organization called "AHA"\\
  
  You've got us all wrong. Read our website.
  
  \\ I believe the Scriptures still say that believers are to be under the authority of a local assembly and its leadership. \\
  
  We've never denied that.
  
  \\For better for worse, that's what Christ has ordained... not the "AHA" or any other "parachurch" organization.\\
  
  http://churchrepent.com/objection-7
  

  
  

  
  

  16 hours ago · Like · 4 ·
  
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  Zandra Abolitionist Westchurch I'll add that certain people are more concerned about their "image" than doing God's work. I'll be happy to spell it out, if need be.

  16 hours ago · Like · 3
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  Christina Harrhof Our clinic escorts have mentioned in a post that they are aware of at least one of these pages. It sure would be nice if all disagreements could be taken privately, instead of battled out in front of unbelievers. Just a thought.

  16 hours ago · Like · 1
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  Casie Kyle Death escorts opinions shouldn't matter. They participate in murder after all. Just my opinion.

  16 hours ago via mobile · Like
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  Christina Harrhof Yes, Casie Kyle, I don't have a high view of the escort's opinions either; however, I was just using them as an example of all the unbelievers who are watching these pages -- some of whom we are personally evangelizing. I'm not sure if it reflects well on believers as a whole to have so many public squabbles -- although I agree with some of the concerns presented and think it is good and right to discuss them privately.

  16 hours ago · Like
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  Jeremy Lundmark "Are we not allowed to proclaim the message of Christ himself to anyone and everyone?"
  
  You can... but in order to be consistent (ie Biblical) you're supposed to submitted to a local assembly that has an authority structure of some kind. If your in an organization that is telling your church what to do... you're not submitting to the authority that the Scriptures call you to submit to (we call that a catch-22)
  
  @Rho- I may have you all wrong... but AHA is all wrong to grab a 5 second clip, and say a man is on board with something, when in fact he has explicitly stated numerous times... that he is not. That's lying first, undermining a brother, second, and making a mockery of an established Church's leader who, in fact, does what you guys do, third. So, whatever AHA is doing, what it has done here is deplorable and self defeating.
  
  You're correct that I don't know much about AHA, in fact I've only encountered it in conjunction with Babies are Murdered here. The reason I don't align with either, yet, is because of this very issue. If there is no respect at all for church authority, I'll have nothing to do with it. That goes for Bible Colleges, Missions agencies, and the like.
  
  All of these organizations are finished if they detach themselves from the local assembly, or worse, tell themselves they have authority over the local church. As a pastor of a local church myself, it took me a long time to learn that Christ wants to accomplish his purposes through his church... not through parachurch organizations. Insofar as AHA is connected to local assemblies it will thrive... if it detaches... it may accomplish a purpose... maybe even a good purpose... but it won't be God's purpose.
  
  I would prefer to see AHA and BAMH close down, and be run from a local assembly. Not sure why either of these organizations exist separate from the local church. Not my place to judge... I ran a parachurch organization for 3 years and closed it down for this very reason. God will get his glory, through his church... how that plays out... We'll watch and see.

  16 hours ago · Like · 2
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  Luis Fernando Zapata God can used anything or any one to rebuke his church.Numbers 22:28 And Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

  16 hours ago · Like · 2
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  Abolish Human Abortion Jeremy Lundmark, you don't understand us enough to be a critic of us.
  
  We have stated a million times that all we want to do is spread an ideology of abolition and that each local abolitionist society is to be autonomous from AHA (only unified in ideology) and under the authority of their local leaders who are active members of local bodies with pastors, evangelists, teachers, preachers, etc etc etc.
  
  AHA also has stated many times that we should not have to exist and that our primary interest is to see the abolitionist movement led by local church bodies and pastors. Please read the website, church repent.com

  13 hours ago · Like · 4
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  Casie Kyle If they are not against us, they are for us. Paraphrase of what Jesus said to the apostles about another guy.

  13 hours ago via mobile · Like
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  Abolish Human Abortion // I would prefer to see AHA...close down.//
  
  Wow us too! I think it was said several times at our conference this weekend. We want to see the Church (the Bride of Christ, the invisible Church which you are conflating as the visible local institutions we call churches) step up and lead the charge to abolish human abortion. They are not doing so and seem to be content with not doing so. Hence why we stood sat for long hours in hard pews the last couple days and all have sunburns today from being out pleading with them to do so. Right on! We hope the church will do this and we are pledging to help them.

  13 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
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  Jeremy Lundmark //I think it was said several times at our conference this weekend. We want to see the Church step up and lead the charge to abolish human abortion.//
  
  So... close it. If that's what you guys want... file for dissolution.
  
  //We have stated a million times that all we want to do is spread an ideology of abolition//
  
  That's your mission, not the mission of the church. We're called to make disciples of Christ... not abolitionists.
  
  //AHA also has stated many times that we should not have to exist and that our primary interest is to see the abolitionist movement led by local church bodies and pastors... Right on! We hope the church will do this and we are pledging to help them.//
  
  O.k. If any of that is true... dissolve AHA. It's a simple form of dissolution you file to the state. Call on those who are a part of your organization/ministry to go and do what their doing in and through their local churches.
  
  What boggles my mind about groups like yours (which I've been a part of before just with different causes) is that you all consolidate together to lament the failures of the local church... which you're supposed to be active in and a part of. If the local church is failing on this front... your to blame because you're a part of it.
  
  //the invisible Church which you are conflating as the visible local institutions we call churches//
  
  The Bible speaks of no such thing as the "invisible" church. An invisible church is a non-existent church. Every believer is visible, and is expected by Scripture to be under the authority, or a part of the authority, of a visible local assembly.

  12 hours ago · Edited · Like
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  Jeremy Lundmark One final note...
  
  None of this justifies AHA's initial post here on an individual brother and pastor of a local assembly. I'm not sure on what grounds AHA (in it's seemingly harmless desire to create abolitionists and respect the authority of the church) it misrepresents and mocks a fellow brother and a pastor.
  
  I don't need to know much about the organization to know, that if it says it respects leaders, and then disrespects one... that it's playing games.

  12 hours ago · Edited · Like
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  Jeremy Lundmark @Luis... just saw your comment. God can do anything... that doesn't mean he's doing everything you think he is.

  12 hours ago · Like
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  Jeremy Lundmark Out of Curiosity... how many churches would you guys say are represented under the AHA banner? Why don't all of those churches come together and call on the rest of the church to take a stand on the abortion issue. At least then the authority structure would be Biblical.
  
  If I did everything every parachurch organization wanted me to do... I'd never have time to do what God has called me to do.

  12 hours ago · Like
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  Abolish Human Abortion Jeremy Lundmark, we don't see loving our neighbors as something that a para-ministry is supposed to do and that only some church bodies do.
  
  You really need to read up on what it is that we actually think, say, and do. Take the plank out of your eye, read our website, and then, if you see any specks, we will gladly let you remove them.

  11 hours ago · Like · 2
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  Luis Fernando Zapata Most of the churches forgot that the body of chirst is a body composed with many members not 2 or three there is apostles prophets evangelist pastor and teachers to building the church, and one gift that men can't control is the gift of prophecy, when the others ministries got loss them God bring for this, don't forget what HE SAID MY THOUGH ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHS.

  3 hours ago via mobile · Like
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  Rho Logy Jeremy Lundmark
  
  Hi Jeremy,
  
  First of all, I want to say that I am glad to see you thinking about all this stuff. You are the kind of guy whom God will use to abolish human abortion. You are a pastor. Get your church involved in getting other churches involved, is my encouragement. I do have a few responses to some comments you've made, though.
  
  \\If that's what you guys want... file for dissolution.\\
  
  We wish we could. Not yet, though - there is far too much apathy in the American church to do that. If churches are not rising up to do the work, individual believers must do so. It's far better than leaving the work undone just b/c you don't think that we have a "biblical authority structure".
  Thing is, you can't demonstrate that the authority structure you think is biblical is actually biblical. I challenge you to do so. Show us all where the Scripture says:
  1) "laymen" can't rebuke pastors when they are in sin
  2) one has to be ordained by one's elders to call out sin in others when it is clearly observed.
  Good luck!
  
  \\We're called to make disciples of Christ... not abolitionists.\\
  
  You're creating a dichotomy where none exists. It's probably b/c you don't actually understand our ideology. i encourage you to do some more reading.
  http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/05/a-response-to-babies-are-murdered-here.html
  http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/search/label/Michael%20Coughlin
  http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/search/label/Ed%20Dingess
  
  \\ in and through their local churches.\\
  
  We *are* doing that. And we are *also* calling on other local churches to repent of their apathy and lead the way so that AHA can dissolve.
  
  \\ groups like yours (which I've been a part of before just with different causes)\\
  
  No disrespect intended, but you show little indication you understand our ideology, so I don't know that you are in a position to say that you've been in groups like us before.
  
  \\lament the failures of the local church... which you're supposed to be active in and a part of\\
  
  1) We're doing more than lamenting those failures. We're doing something about them.
  2) We ARE active in local churches.
  
  \\ If the local church is failing on this front... your to blame because you're a part of it. \\
  
  And we are repenting of that and trying to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. You're throwing dirt on our fire when you should be rising up yourself and examining yourself for apathy.
  Notice that I'm not accusing you, but you are accusing us. I am inviting you to examine yourself. You're wrongly pretending you've already examined us a lot.
  
  \\The Bible speaks of no such thing as the "invisible" church. \\
  
  It teaches the concept. Just like the Bible speaks of no such thing as the "visible" church. The words "visible church" do not appear in the Bible.
  The *concept* is taught.
  What church was Martin Luther a part of in 1520?
  
  \\ An invisible church is a non-existent church.\\
  
  This would seem to be an attempt at a pithy one-liner, but it misses the point. The invisible church is all the redeemed of Jesus.
  
  \\Every believer is visible\\
  
  You mean you see like images of crosses on the foreheads of believers, or halos or something? What do you mean?
  
  \\is expected by Scripture to be under the authority, or a part of the authority, of a visible local assembly.\\
  
  Yes, of course. We don't disagree. We do want to qualify the terminology, however. "Authority" in this case doesn't mean that the pastor is above examination by God's Word, nor infallible. Pastors have no authority unless they teach the Word of God. So saying "authority" is really a buzzword in modern Reformedigelicalism, and it needs to be much better understood biblically. Right now it's largely understood in the context of human tradition.
  
  \\None of this justifies AHA's initial post here on an individual brother and pastor of a local assembly\\
  
  You think he's a brother. We have our doubts, given his behavior.
  You also seem to think that it's better to criticise someone who has called out sinful behavior in a professing brother. You should check that in the SCripture again. It's loving to try to restore a sinning brother to the truth, to follow Jesus without sin.
  You, by coddling him and pretending his sin doesn't exist, are actually the one treating him in an unloving way. He needs to repent.
  
  \\ it misrepresents and mocks a fellow brother and a pastor.\\
  
  How precisely did we misrep or mock him? We're just quoting him.
  
  \\how many churches would you guys say are represented under the AHA banner? \\
  
  I don't know what "the AHA banner" means.
  
  \\Why don't all of those churches come together and call on the rest of the church to take a stand on the abortion issue.\\
  
  We would love it if yours would be the first. And I'm being 100% sincere. Until that happens, our role is necessary.
  
  \\At least then the authority structure would be Biblical.\\
  
  Flesh this out with Scripture. What are you talking about? Where does the Scripture talk about individual local churches joining together and what the authority structure in that case looks like and what it's supposed to look like?
  
  \\If I did everything every parachurch organization wanted me to do... I'd never have time to do what God has called me to do.\\
  
  Do what the BIble says, then, and forget "parachurch orgs".
  http://churchrepent.com/child-sacrifice/
  
  Don't hide behind "authority" like a Pope.