Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. If God allows rape, then he allows abortion. He believes in free-will. They should too.- Rhology What you're missing is that God is patient and does not destroy sinners just before they sin or right after... He usually waits a long time before judgment comes on them. But His clear commands are not to rape and not to murder.
Yet He redeems and brings good out of evil, even the gift of life out of being raped.
On our blog we have a lovely testimony published just last week about a woman who was raped and who loves her child.
Another one from a couple of months ago.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com
Don't love death and don't mock God. - Unwanted pregnancy and a woman's choice. I don't believe in your God.
If a woman wishes to keep a product of rape, that is her CHOICE.
That would not be my choice.
You God gives people free-will. Who are you to take their free-will from them?
I will mock your god. You god does so many horrific things to people that don't deserve them.
God lets bad things happen to good people and people like you call it God's will.
If God is so against abortion, I suggest he stop giving his little gifts to those that will abort. While he is at it, he might want to stop giving little gifts to those that will abuse it after it is born. Your relationship with your god is the most abusive relationship ever. I chose not to be in such an abusive relationship. - Rhology \\ I don't believe in your God.\\
Unsurprising.
\\You God gives people free-will. Who are you to take their free-will from them?\\
I don't believe God gives people free will. Free CHOICE, sure. Maybe that's what you meant.
I am no one. God however has commanded us not to do certain things. Some choices are wrong.
*YOU* want to remove "free will" from those who'd like to rape a woman, so your objection has no teeth.
\\I will mock your god.\\
He's crushed; I hope you know that.
\\You god does so many horrific things to people that don't deserve them.\\
He thinks we all deserve Hell and extends mercy to people so that we all have longer lives than we have merited.
What's your argument that we don't deserve horrific things? How do you know what is deserved?
\\God lets bad things happen to good people and people like you call it God's will.\\
That only happened once, and He volunteered.
There are no good people.
If you disagree, please let me know what your standard of measurement for goodness and badness is. Don't say "society", don't say "my instinct", and don't say "science" - those are answers for fools. What is it?
\\If God is so against abortion, I suggest he stop giving his little gifts to those that will abort.\\
I'm sure the Almighty will take your suggestion under advisement.
\\While he is at it, he might want to stop giving little gifts to those that will abuse it after it is born.\\
What you're missing is that God is patient and does not destroy sinners just before they sin or right after... He usually waits a long time before judgment comes on them. But His clear commands are not to rape and not to murder.
Yet He redeems and brings good out of evil, even the gift of life out of being abused as a child.
On our blog we have a lovely testimony published just last week about a woman who was molested as a child and who loves her child, born of her molester.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com
Don't love death and don't mock God.
\\ Your relationship with your god is the most abusive relationship ever\\
This is nothing more than a rant, pure emoting. Not an argument driven by reason.
Showing posts with label theodicy. Show all posts
Showing posts with label theodicy. Show all posts
Monday, October 29, 2012
On Mourdock's remark about God and rape
Friday, July 22, 2011
A challenge on the problem of evil
Tweeter @benfromcanada has challenged me to deal with a blogpost of his. I'm only too happy to do so.
Full disclosure; I also asked bossmanham to take a swing at it if he has time, since I'm sure that his response, as a Molinist, will be quite different from my take, as a Calvinist. Diversity!
The post is entitled: Christianity's problem with free will
Let me begin by establishing that I don't hold to "free will" with no qualifications. It is my position that the Bible presents to us a God Who is Himself totally free and perfect. He does not change His plan, He does not change His mind, He does not improve on anything or learn anything, because He is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
I can't say it a whole lot better than Ephesians chapter 1:
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Notice that it is because of grace, unmerited favor from God. We humans are wretched and rebellious against God. We can't dig our way out of our problem by good works, for one thing because none of us care enough about doing so. Thus Jesus and His sacrifice, and thus it says in John 6:44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
Everyone who who listened to and learned from the Father comes to Jesus, and v44 says that all who come are raised up. Straight progression, and it is the outworking of our sinful nature, how we don't care to come to God. So God transforms us, draws us, gives us a heart to love Him so that we afterward freely choose Him. Before, we freely chose sin and death; now we choose life and Jesus.
It's not "libertarian free will", not unfettered and not uninfluenced. I know it can seem that way to us, but the Bible tells us far more and far deeper information than our own limited vision and introspection can give, because it is the expression of God, Who knows you far better than you know yourself.
Notice, v11 that we have been predestined for an inheritance - to receive Jesus' great gift of Himself and eternal life.
v11 - He works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will. He is free and unfettered to create and work out a perfect plan. We are influenced and fettered by stronger powers than we - sin and death from birth until Jesus saves us, and slavery to Jesus and righteousness afterward.
v12 - to a specific end, for God's glory.
v13 - Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That seal can not be removed.
One more thing:
Romans 8:6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The non-Christian can not please God, and doesn't care to. His mind is in slavery to death.
The Christian's mind is in slavery to Jesus and to life. Neither of these are totally free, and that's OK. God knows what He's doing.
So, with that biblical framework in mind, we turn to your questions:
1: How do you reconcile your belief in free will with your belief that god has a plan for us all?
Answer: I don't believe in free will, so there you go. Ask someone who does. :-)
2: Is free will a good thing or a bad thing? If it's good, why does god not allow it in heaven? If it's bad, why does god allow it at all?
Let me answer the question as corresponds to the proper biblical understanding: Will is neither good nor bad; it can be used for good or for ill and it depends on whether the person in question is under the control of death and sin or of Jesus.
Our wills are somewhat free, however, and yet my answer remains the same. Rick Warren has said "the greatest gift God gave us is free will", and that is idiocy. The greatest gift God gave us is Jesus, and Jesus has saved us from the necessary outcomes of our wills' bad choices.
God allows free will in Heaven because He has given us new hearts and new natures that always desire Him. In this life we continue to struggle with the flesh and temptation (see Romans 7), but in Heaven those will not be present.
Your third sub-question is the entire problem of evil summarised. I recommend you see this article.
3: If you can't adequately solve the previous problems, how do you solve the Riddle of Epicurus?
I can solve them, but I'll also tackle this lame dilemma so there can remain no question.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
--He is able.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
--Unless He has a perfect plan that includes the pouring out of His grace on sinners to redeem them, and also pouring out His perfect wrath and justice on other sinners, to show the justice of His righteousness.
This question assumes that humans are neutral or even good, and that's just not the case. Humans are wicked and sinful.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
--Answered already.
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
--Good question; ask a Mormon.
Full disclosure; I also asked bossmanham to take a swing at it if he has time, since I'm sure that his response, as a Molinist, will be quite different from my take, as a Calvinist. Diversity!
The post is entitled: Christianity's problem with free will
Let me begin by establishing that I don't hold to "free will" with no qualifications. It is my position that the Bible presents to us a God Who is Himself totally free and perfect. He does not change His plan, He does not change His mind, He does not improve on anything or learn anything, because He is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
I can't say it a whole lot better than Ephesians chapter 1:
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Notice that it is because of grace, unmerited favor from God. We humans are wretched and rebellious against God. We can't dig our way out of our problem by good works, for one thing because none of us care enough about doing so. Thus Jesus and His sacrifice, and thus it says in John 6:44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
Everyone who who listened to and learned from the Father comes to Jesus, and v44 says that all who come are raised up. Straight progression, and it is the outworking of our sinful nature, how we don't care to come to God. So God transforms us, draws us, gives us a heart to love Him so that we afterward freely choose Him. Before, we freely chose sin and death; now we choose life and Jesus.
It's not "libertarian free will", not unfettered and not uninfluenced. I know it can seem that way to us, but the Bible tells us far more and far deeper information than our own limited vision and introspection can give, because it is the expression of God, Who knows you far better than you know yourself.
Notice, v11 that we have been predestined for an inheritance - to receive Jesus' great gift of Himself and eternal life.
v11 - He works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will. He is free and unfettered to create and work out a perfect plan. We are influenced and fettered by stronger powers than we - sin and death from birth until Jesus saves us, and slavery to Jesus and righteousness afterward.
v12 - to a specific end, for God's glory.
v13 - Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit. That seal can not be removed.
One more thing:
Romans 8:6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The non-Christian can not please God, and doesn't care to. His mind is in slavery to death.
The Christian's mind is in slavery to Jesus and to life. Neither of these are totally free, and that's OK. God knows what He's doing.
So, with that biblical framework in mind, we turn to your questions:
1: How do you reconcile your belief in free will with your belief that god has a plan for us all?
Answer: I don't believe in free will, so there you go. Ask someone who does. :-)
2: Is free will a good thing or a bad thing? If it's good, why does god not allow it in heaven? If it's bad, why does god allow it at all?
Let me answer the question as corresponds to the proper biblical understanding: Will is neither good nor bad; it can be used for good or for ill and it depends on whether the person in question is under the control of death and sin or of Jesus.
Our wills are somewhat free, however, and yet my answer remains the same. Rick Warren has said "the greatest gift God gave us is free will", and that is idiocy. The greatest gift God gave us is Jesus, and Jesus has saved us from the necessary outcomes of our wills' bad choices.
God allows free will in Heaven because He has given us new hearts and new natures that always desire Him. In this life we continue to struggle with the flesh and temptation (see Romans 7), but in Heaven those will not be present.
Your third sub-question is the entire problem of evil summarised. I recommend you see this article.
3: If you can't adequately solve the previous problems, how do you solve the Riddle of Epicurus?
I can solve them, but I'll also tackle this lame dilemma so there can remain no question.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
--He is able.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
--Unless He has a perfect plan that includes the pouring out of His grace on sinners to redeem them, and also pouring out His perfect wrath and justice on other sinners, to show the justice of His righteousness.
This question assumes that humans are neutral or even good, and that's just not the case. Humans are wicked and sinful.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
--Answered already.
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
--Good question; ask a Mormon.
Monday, March 14, 2011
Pearl Harbor
My friend and fellow Japanophile PJ tweeted a link to what amounts to a disgusting display of ugly-Americanism at its worst. Americans letting the Japanese people know - that earthquake and tsunami? You had it coming because of Pearl Harbor. Some of us still haven't forgiven you for Pearl Harbor. God is still angry at Japan because of Pearl Harbor. I wish the tsunami had occurred on Dec 7, not in March. Etc.
What makes this entire collation so ludicrously infuriating is that many of these people are half-right, but they clearly don't know which half. Thus they resort to Yay-America cheerleading. God is pretty much always on our side, and so if you come at us, be prepared for God to throw it back in your face. And yeah, we'll come to your aid because we're cool like that. I mean, hey, we're America. That's what we do.
I'm no blind patriot - I recognise that the US has been by many or perhaps most measures the greatest country ever seen on the planet. I also recognise that the US has many, many flaws. It is not a Christian nation (at least, not anymore). It is most certainly not God's chosen people or nation. What we are or aren't, it is by God's grace alone, and that's the problem with these Pearl Harbor remarks. God/Karma is hitting Japan back because of its past victimisation and unjust treatment of others. They deserve what they're getting.
So, let's start with this question - does Japan deserve what it's getting? No way, no how. Today, tens of millions of Japanese people will wake up from sleep. That's a blessing. They will breathe air. Blessing. Many will eat food and drink water. Blessing. The ambient temperature will be within the range of human tolerance. Blessing. The blessings go on and on, such that I could never name nor count them. They do not deserve what they're getting, which is blessing.
Did Japan deserve the tsunami, specifically, and the painful afterplay? No way, no how. Japan deserves far worse. Japan is a pagan, idolatrous, perverted nation full of pagan, idolatrous, perverted people. Perverted, pagan idolatry is sin, and sin must be punished. God will not be patient with sin and sinners forever. Comparably-minor judgments like these are mere foreshadowings and tastes of the judgment to come. I believe that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a sin as well, in and of itself, and as such deserves punishment and judgment. Even if the attack were justified, it is impossible to argue that it was carried out with 100% pure motives and in 100% pure ways.
Biblically speaking, suffering and other unpleasant experiences come upon people for a variety of reasons. One of them is punishment for sin and foreshadowing of future judgment, as I mentioned above. This is where the ugly Americans get the small part of it wrong. Do they know for sure that God is making what goes around come around? Where did God say that?
He didn't. This is one of the (many) places where Pat Robertson went wrong in the wake of the Haiti earthquake. How do you know the connection exists? Pat R might claim divine revelation, but that's OK - I expect lies, deception, and false prophecies from a false prophet. The biblical narrative of history reveals occasional "tit-for-tat" judgments-for-sins, such as the curse of Adam and Eve and Satan in Genesis 3, the 10 plagues on Egypt, the forced wandering in the Sinai desert, the defeat at Ai, the Assyrian destruction of Israel, the Babylonian captivity of Judah, etc. Other sins go without immediate or directly-connected judgment, and unless God speaks, you don't know what God is thinking.
Such is the case with these Facebookers - they don't know what God is thinking.
Here's the major part where they go wrong. Does America deserve any better than Japan? These ugly-American Facebookers seem to think so. After all, we were the victims at Pearl Harbor. Good thing we fought back and stomped their sorry yellow behinds, right? That's the attitude here.
Yet, America deserves no better than Japan, and probably worse. Japan has never had a significant Gospel witness and is one of the most pre-Christian societies on Earth even today, but America was once a Christian nation and has let that wonderful foundation and heritage slip right through our fingers. Japan is full of ancestor worshipers, but we put our elderly to death or ignore them in their old age. Japan is facing a population bomb because of low birthrates, but we have killed tens of millions of our own children in the womb. Japan springs up cults every week, but America has spawned two of the most successful cults of all time (Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses) and many of its own cults. We'll see Japan's Aum Shinrikyo and raise them a David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, and Jim Jones. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, but was that attack nearly as unjustified as America's aggression in the war with Mexico (1830s) and the war against Spain (turn of the 20th century), to say nothing of the North's aggression against the South in the 1860s and the invasion of Vietnam in the 1960s? Japan tore, raped, and pillaged its way through Korea and China in the 1930s. America didn't treat the Native American Indians all that well, either.
And on and on it goes. American evanjellyfish seem to think there's something special about America, and that that allows us a platform from which to preach our own righteousness. We can spit at each other about which sins are worse, but where will that get us? Jockeying for position over which level of hell we'll occupy.
Should we not rather pray, as in Daniel 9?
7“Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You. 8“Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9“To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him; 10nor have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. 11“Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him."
The answer is to repent before God and turn to Jesus. Only in Him can we have forgiveness of our great sin. What good will your birthplace be before the judgment seat of God? Will God accept neo-con values and a Republican voting record as an effective counterbalance for your sins? Jesus died on the cross to give a way of salvation to all those who weren't right-wing Americans (who of course earn their own way to Heaven b/c they're smarter than everyone else and hold strongly to low taxes and freedom of gun ownership)?
What makes this entire collation so ludicrously infuriating is that many of these people are half-right, but they clearly don't know which half. Thus they resort to Yay-America cheerleading. God is pretty much always on our side, and so if you come at us, be prepared for God to throw it back in your face. And yeah, we'll come to your aid because we're cool like that. I mean, hey, we're America. That's what we do.
I'm no blind patriot - I recognise that the US has been by many or perhaps most measures the greatest country ever seen on the planet. I also recognise that the US has many, many flaws. It is not a Christian nation (at least, not anymore). It is most certainly not God's chosen people or nation. What we are or aren't, it is by God's grace alone, and that's the problem with these Pearl Harbor remarks. God/Karma is hitting Japan back because of its past victimisation and unjust treatment of others. They deserve what they're getting.
So, let's start with this question - does Japan deserve what it's getting? No way, no how. Today, tens of millions of Japanese people will wake up from sleep. That's a blessing. They will breathe air. Blessing. Many will eat food and drink water. Blessing. The ambient temperature will be within the range of human tolerance. Blessing. The blessings go on and on, such that I could never name nor count them. They do not deserve what they're getting, which is blessing.
Did Japan deserve the tsunami, specifically, and the painful afterplay? No way, no how. Japan deserves far worse. Japan is a pagan, idolatrous, perverted nation full of pagan, idolatrous, perverted people. Perverted, pagan idolatry is sin, and sin must be punished. God will not be patient with sin and sinners forever. Comparably-minor judgments like these are mere foreshadowings and tastes of the judgment to come. I believe that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a sin as well, in and of itself, and as such deserves punishment and judgment. Even if the attack were justified, it is impossible to argue that it was carried out with 100% pure motives and in 100% pure ways.
Biblically speaking, suffering and other unpleasant experiences come upon people for a variety of reasons. One of them is punishment for sin and foreshadowing of future judgment, as I mentioned above. This is where the ugly Americans get the small part of it wrong. Do they know for sure that God is making what goes around come around? Where did God say that?
He didn't. This is one of the (many) places where Pat Robertson went wrong in the wake of the Haiti earthquake. How do you know the connection exists? Pat R might claim divine revelation, but that's OK - I expect lies, deception, and false prophecies from a false prophet. The biblical narrative of history reveals occasional "tit-for-tat" judgments-for-sins, such as the curse of Adam and Eve and Satan in Genesis 3, the 10 plagues on Egypt, the forced wandering in the Sinai desert, the defeat at Ai, the Assyrian destruction of Israel, the Babylonian captivity of Judah, etc. Other sins go without immediate or directly-connected judgment, and unless God speaks, you don't know what God is thinking.
Such is the case with these Facebookers - they don't know what God is thinking.
Here's the major part where they go wrong. Does America deserve any better than Japan? These ugly-American Facebookers seem to think so. After all, we were the victims at Pearl Harbor. Good thing we fought back and stomped their sorry yellow behinds, right? That's the attitude here.
Yet, America deserves no better than Japan, and probably worse. Japan has never had a significant Gospel witness and is one of the most pre-Christian societies on Earth even today, but America was once a Christian nation and has let that wonderful foundation and heritage slip right through our fingers. Japan is full of ancestor worshipers, but we put our elderly to death or ignore them in their old age. Japan is facing a population bomb because of low birthrates, but we have killed tens of millions of our own children in the womb. Japan springs up cults every week, but America has spawned two of the most successful cults of all time (Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses) and many of its own cults. We'll see Japan's Aum Shinrikyo and raise them a David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, and Jim Jones. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, but was that attack nearly as unjustified as America's aggression in the war with Mexico (1830s) and the war against Spain (turn of the 20th century), to say nothing of the North's aggression against the South in the 1860s and the invasion of Vietnam in the 1960s? Japan tore, raped, and pillaged its way through Korea and China in the 1930s. America didn't treat the Native American Indians all that well, either.
And on and on it goes. American evanjellyfish seem to think there's something special about America, and that that allows us a platform from which to preach our own righteousness. We can spit at each other about which sins are worse, but where will that get us? Jockeying for position over which level of hell we'll occupy.
Should we not rather pray, as in Daniel 9?
7“Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You. 8“Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9“To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him; 10nor have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. 11“Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him."
The answer is to repent before God and turn to Jesus. Only in Him can we have forgiveness of our great sin. What good will your birthplace be before the judgment seat of God? Will God accept neo-con values and a Republican voting record as an effective counterbalance for your sins? Jesus died on the cross to give a way of salvation to all those who weren't right-wing Americans (who of course earn their own way to Heaven b/c they're smarter than everyone else and hold strongly to low taxes and freedom of gun ownership)?
Monday, January 24, 2011
Review of Bart Ehrman's "God's Problem"
"Where is God now?" inquires Dr. Bart Ehrman in his 2008 book, God's Problem. The subtitle goes on to state, "How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question - Why We Suffer." The further one delves into the book, however, the more one will discover that this claim is substantially inaccurate. One of my friends has done just that. He's dissected Ehrman's book and says a better title more accurately reflecting the book's content and thought would be: "My Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Why We Suffer to My Personal Satisfaction."
Matt (from Vox Veritatis) and I review and dissect Dr Bart Ehrman's God's Problem and, while they're at it, provide a powerful and biblical theodicy:
God's Problem: Review and Solution
(Please leave any comments at the Triablogue cross-post.)
Matt (from Vox Veritatis) and I review and dissect Dr Bart Ehrman's God's Problem and, while they're at it, provide a powerful and biblical theodicy:
God's Problem: Review and Solution
(Please leave any comments at the Triablogue cross-post.)
Friday, May 14, 2010
On theodicy and God's plan, with an atheist
David over at bossmanham's blog has been making some noise about the goodness of God and the existence of evil. Same song, different verse.
David said...
David,
The providence of God? Is that the same thing as “wizard”?
No. Not even close, really.
In fact, naturalistic forces and theories share a lot in common with magic.
The only thing a "wizard" and God share in common is that they do supernatural things. The mechanism, the source of the power, the means of accessing it, etc are all totally different.
Further, you're poking fun partly b/c you apparently think the God explanation is ad hoc, and yet the Bible's been around 2000+ years. Nothing ad hoc about a static text like that.
I’m constantly hearing that if a given human takes a given action, that’s going against God’s plan for their life and is sinful.
either they misunderstand the term "God's plan" or they mean God's COMMANDS for their life. In the former they think they can access more of God's secret will than they really can, but the latter is perfectly reasonable. For example, God says "Don't sleep with your boyfriend". If you go ahead and sleep with your boyfriend, you're going against God's plan for your life and you're sinning.
when people thwart God’s plan, they’re to be tortured for all eternity.
ALL people "thwart God's plan" in that they disobey many of His commandments. And we'll all be punished for all eternity if we do not accept His forgiveness for that.
Or do human actions have no effect on the plan?
They do, but God foresaw everything and has taken all human actions into acct. 'Cause He's smart.
then why does it matter if one follows the plan or not?
B/c God told us to, and obeying God is an objective good.
One wonders why you vote (if you do vote); your vote will literally have no effect on the outcome whatsoever. So why do it? Obviously for some other reason than "my vote will change the future", b/c it won't. If you think it will, you're naive. Sorry.
that suggests that the script of history is already written, and there goes your “free will defense” designed to excuse God for the evil in the world.
Bossmanham and I aren't in agreement about this, but I think (hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong) that he'd say that God's foreknown plan does not exclude free will choices. It's mysterious, sure, but not logically incoherent any more than my watching a recording of last year's Super Bowl means Drew Brees didn't have a choice to throw X number of times to Marques Colston.
Now, I don't think that libertarian free will exists, apart from the decree of God, and so my answer is a bit different. Which is why I don't defend the free will defense. Just for your education.
It’s not evil to allow an evil act to occur?
Please define how you can objectively identify evil. Does objective evil exist? How do you know? How do you recognise it?
But this is not what I think of when I ponder an all-powerful good and perfect god.
And if this thread were all about "Does David think ____ when he think of 'an all-powerful good and perfect god'", then I guess we'd be done. But it's not.
How can a perfectly morally good entity fail to act to prevent evil?
For one thing, b/c He has a better good in store by allowing this evil now.
For another, b/c you don't get to define what's good and evil. He does.
So, is the murder a good thing or a bad thing?
The murder would be a bad thing for the human, b/c the human doesn't know what the future holds for the victim. If it just so happens that the victim would grow up to be Hitler, I can't know that but God does. God might arrange for him to die, maybe even thru being murdered, and thus prevent him from growing up to be another Hitler. But only God knows that. Further, God has the right to kill anyone or command that anyone be killed at any time.
People die every second of every day. Man is fallen and sinful, and the penalty for sin is death - Romans 3:23 and following through the end of chapter 5. It is only thru God's forbearance and mercy that I or any other person draw the next breath. And the next, and the next. And of course, it is only thru His mercy in Christ's death and resurrection that eternal Hell is not everyone's final destination.
Murder is defined as the unjustified taking of human life.
Yet, as every man, woman, and child is sinful and bears the guilt of the sin of Adam, all are subject to the death penalty. This also includes the various peoples of Canaan, whom God commanded the OT Hebrews to put to death after hundreds of years of giving them time to repent of their perversions. This includes the millions of babies that die every year in the womb (re: Sam Harris' correct and yet wrongheaded and amazingly morally blind assertion that God is the greatest living abortionist). God is fully justified in putting anyone to death at any time thru any manner or agency He chooses.
And why would God ever use evil acts to bring about good things?
B/c it glorifies Him.
See, by this point you're just taking the Eddie Tabash/Chrissy Hitchens approach, asking a lot of questions that are in effect arguments from personal outrage. But you need to give us a reason to think these questions matter. Like in what way you're a moral authority to express such outrage, and why anyone else should imitate your outrage.
The providence of God? Is that the same thing as “wizard”?
“The concept that we could thwart God's plans is silliness at its best.”
Silliness? I’m confused. I’m constantly hearing that if a given human takes a given action, that’s going against God’s plan for their life and is sinful. And yet, people will take the given action and go against the alleged plan. Not only is the concept not silly, but when people thwart God’s plan, they’re to be tortured for all eternity.
Or do human actions have no effect on the plan? If a human doesn’t follow God’s plan, it doesn’t thwart the plan in any way? If going against the plan has no effect, if we can’t thwart God’s plan, then why does it matter if one follows the plan or not? If the plan can’t be thwarted, that suggests that the script of history is already written, and there goes your “free will defense” designed to excuse God for the evil in the world.
“It's evil for the individual to do it. It's not evil for God to allow it. There are two wills at work here. Get with the program.”
It’s not evil to allow an evil act to occur? That’s a clever excuse. But this is not what I think of when I ponder an all-powerful good and perfect god. How can a perfectly morally good entity fail to act to prevent evil? What would you think of a human who failed to act to stop and evil deed from happening? Would we accept “well, I didn’t do the evil act myself” as an excuse? At a minimum, it makes God awfully passive.
Ok, so now you’re saying that the murder of would-be-Hitler is evil and that this is not a righteous kill. But on the other hand, this act saved the lives of many would-be victims, and you emphasized that there is a “morally sufficient reason to allow that murder”, and so it would not be wrong to allow it. Saving lives and “morally sufficient reason” suggests that the murder is a good thing, not an evil thing. If it’s not morally wrong to allow it, that suggests that the act itself is good, not evil. Had the murder been stopped, many others would have died. So, is the murder a good thing or a bad thing?
And why would God ever use evil acts to bring about good things? Why is evil an essential part of the good God’s plan? This is totally unnecessary and contradicts the notion of a good God. Why use evil humans and their evil deeds to accomplish something good when you have the power to reach the same goal without any evil act at all? All you have to do is glance in the direction of would-be Hitler and…instant heart attack. Instead, you have to sit back and allow evil acts to occur to accomplish the goal of taking out would-be Hitler? Or was there never a plan to take out would-be Hitler, and it was just a lucky break than an evil human happened to kill would-be Hitler? And why didn’t God take out actual Hitler with a heart attack? This is an “all-powerful, perfect, always good, never evil” god?
“Thus David appeals to ridicule again.”
Not ridicule at all. I’m appealing to reality. This is how theology really works. I’m convinced that you lack the cognitive skills to see reality. Ridicule is useful for identifying things that are ridiculous.
“The concept that we could thwart God's plans is silliness at its best.”
Silliness? I’m confused. I’m constantly hearing that if a given human takes a given action, that’s going against God’s plan for their life and is sinful. And yet, people will take the given action and go against the alleged plan. Not only is the concept not silly, but when people thwart God’s plan, they’re to be tortured for all eternity.
Or do human actions have no effect on the plan? If a human doesn’t follow God’s plan, it doesn’t thwart the plan in any way? If going against the plan has no effect, if we can’t thwart God’s plan, then why does it matter if one follows the plan or not? If the plan can’t be thwarted, that suggests that the script of history is already written, and there goes your “free will defense” designed to excuse God for the evil in the world.
“It's evil for the individual to do it. It's not evil for God to allow it. There are two wills at work here. Get with the program.”
It’s not evil to allow an evil act to occur? That’s a clever excuse. But this is not what I think of when I ponder an all-powerful good and perfect god. How can a perfectly morally good entity fail to act to prevent evil? What would you think of a human who failed to act to stop and evil deed from happening? Would we accept “well, I didn’t do the evil act myself” as an excuse? At a minimum, it makes God awfully passive.
Ok, so now you’re saying that the murder of would-be-Hitler is evil and that this is not a righteous kill. But on the other hand, this act saved the lives of many would-be victims, and you emphasized that there is a “morally sufficient reason to allow that murder”, and so it would not be wrong to allow it. Saving lives and “morally sufficient reason” suggests that the murder is a good thing, not an evil thing. If it’s not morally wrong to allow it, that suggests that the act itself is good, not evil. Had the murder been stopped, many others would have died. So, is the murder a good thing or a bad thing?
And why would God ever use evil acts to bring about good things? Why is evil an essential part of the good God’s plan? This is totally unnecessary and contradicts the notion of a good God. Why use evil humans and their evil deeds to accomplish something good when you have the power to reach the same goal without any evil act at all? All you have to do is glance in the direction of would-be Hitler and…instant heart attack. Instead, you have to sit back and allow evil acts to occur to accomplish the goal of taking out would-be Hitler? Or was there never a plan to take out would-be Hitler, and it was just a lucky break than an evil human happened to kill would-be Hitler? And why didn’t God take out actual Hitler with a heart attack? This is an “all-powerful, perfect, always good, never evil” god?
“Thus David appeals to ridicule again.”
Not ridicule at all. I’m appealing to reality. This is how theology really works. I’m convinced that you lack the cognitive skills to see reality. Ridicule is useful for identifying things that are ridiculous.
David,
The providence of God? Is that the same thing as “wizard”?
No. Not even close, really.
In fact, naturalistic forces and theories share a lot in common with magic.
The only thing a "wizard" and God share in common is that they do supernatural things. The mechanism, the source of the power, the means of accessing it, etc are all totally different.
Further, you're poking fun partly b/c you apparently think the God explanation is ad hoc, and yet the Bible's been around 2000+ years. Nothing ad hoc about a static text like that.
I’m constantly hearing that if a given human takes a given action, that’s going against God’s plan for their life and is sinful.
either they misunderstand the term "God's plan" or they mean God's COMMANDS for their life. In the former they think they can access more of God's secret will than they really can, but the latter is perfectly reasonable. For example, God says "Don't sleep with your boyfriend". If you go ahead and sleep with your boyfriend, you're going against God's plan for your life and you're sinning.
when people thwart God’s plan, they’re to be tortured for all eternity.
ALL people "thwart God's plan" in that they disobey many of His commandments. And we'll all be punished for all eternity if we do not accept His forgiveness for that.
Or do human actions have no effect on the plan?
They do, but God foresaw everything and has taken all human actions into acct. 'Cause He's smart.
then why does it matter if one follows the plan or not?
B/c God told us to, and obeying God is an objective good.
One wonders why you vote (if you do vote); your vote will literally have no effect on the outcome whatsoever. So why do it? Obviously for some other reason than "my vote will change the future", b/c it won't. If you think it will, you're naive. Sorry.
that suggests that the script of history is already written, and there goes your “free will defense” designed to excuse God for the evil in the world.
Bossmanham and I aren't in agreement about this, but I think (hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong) that he'd say that God's foreknown plan does not exclude free will choices. It's mysterious, sure, but not logically incoherent any more than my watching a recording of last year's Super Bowl means Drew Brees didn't have a choice to throw X number of times to Marques Colston.
Now, I don't think that libertarian free will exists, apart from the decree of God, and so my answer is a bit different. Which is why I don't defend the free will defense. Just for your education.
It’s not evil to allow an evil act to occur?
Please define how you can objectively identify evil. Does objective evil exist? How do you know? How do you recognise it?
But this is not what I think of when I ponder an all-powerful good and perfect god.
And if this thread were all about "Does David think ____ when he think of 'an all-powerful good and perfect god'", then I guess we'd be done. But it's not.
How can a perfectly morally good entity fail to act to prevent evil?
For one thing, b/c He has a better good in store by allowing this evil now.
For another, b/c you don't get to define what's good and evil. He does.
So, is the murder a good thing or a bad thing?
The murder would be a bad thing for the human, b/c the human doesn't know what the future holds for the victim. If it just so happens that the victim would grow up to be Hitler, I can't know that but God does. God might arrange for him to die, maybe even thru being murdered, and thus prevent him from growing up to be another Hitler. But only God knows that. Further, God has the right to kill anyone or command that anyone be killed at any time.
People die every second of every day. Man is fallen and sinful, and the penalty for sin is death - Romans 3:23 and following through the end of chapter 5. It is only thru God's forbearance and mercy that I or any other person draw the next breath. And the next, and the next. And of course, it is only thru His mercy in Christ's death and resurrection that eternal Hell is not everyone's final destination.
Murder is defined as the unjustified taking of human life.
Yet, as every man, woman, and child is sinful and bears the guilt of the sin of Adam, all are subject to the death penalty. This also includes the various peoples of Canaan, whom God commanded the OT Hebrews to put to death after hundreds of years of giving them time to repent of their perversions. This includes the millions of babies that die every year in the womb (re: Sam Harris' correct and yet wrongheaded and amazingly morally blind assertion that God is the greatest living abortionist). God is fully justified in putting anyone to death at any time thru any manner or agency He chooses.
And why would God ever use evil acts to bring about good things?
B/c it glorifies Him.
See, by this point you're just taking the Eddie Tabash/Chrissy Hitchens approach, asking a lot of questions that are in effect arguments from personal outrage. But you need to give us a reason to think these questions matter. Like in what way you're a moral authority to express such outrage, and why anyone else should imitate your outrage.
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