AJ: Yo Matt, before you and your AHAer friends go condemning everyone else view on God, you ought to REALLY examine your own.
16 hrs
Me: We examine it all the time, and pro-abortion people are only too happy to help. We condemn falsehoods and deception, and we hope that your souls will be saved. Repent of your sin and idolatry. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, Him alone, to save you from your sin. Holding to the nonsense of UUism is not worth your soul.
16 hrs
AJ: No doubt you. Examine it a little bit more in depth Rhology. As I look back on my years as a Christian, I find it very refreshing that I am no longer tied to a belief system I did not invent or join because of upbringing.
16 hrs
Me: I didn't join it b/c of upbringing. I joined it b/c Jesus transformed me, brought me to repentance, forgave my sin, and told me to follow Him.
Why don't you follow Jesus?
8 hrs
Angel: Rhology, if Jesus told you to jump off a cliff would you?
7 hrs
Me: Sure. But that of course brings up a couple of questions, specifically how I would know it was Jesus talking.
Since the devil tempted Jesus to do that very thing and Jesus told him that one should not put the Lord to the test, there is every reason to think you have proposed an impossible and therefore empty hypothetical.
How about this, though? If He told me to love UUs so much that I would not pass up an opportunity to be seen as a fool and a crazy person in the eyes of my own culture if I may offer them the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I would obey.
3 hrs
AJ: Simple, Jesus isn't for me. I came from a denomination where Jesus was all it.
When I was still a Christian,
other Christians would usually expect me to show
how a certain belief was based in the Bible. Not a problem usually, I know the Bible backwards and forwards. Now I have developed my own spirituality. I prefer spiritual progress, not digression and stagnation.
3 hrs
Angel: Rhology, You claim Jesus told you to follow him, your own words, how do you know it is not the devil? You claim my sentence is an empty hypothetical, and since yours is just the same then yours must be an empty hypothetical, in which case Jesus did not tell you to follow him but you claim he did ... Kind of crazy of you make all that up no?
3 hrs · Edited
Me: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him. What flaw do you find in Jesus that you don't follow Him?
\\You claim Jesus told you to follow him, your own words, how do you know it is not the devil? \\
Because the devil wouldn't tell me to serve his mortal enemy.
Angel, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
3 hrs
Showing posts with label universalism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label universalism. Show all posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014
Wednesday, April 11, 2007
Universalists everywhere, or, Paul vs James
It looks like not only is AB Dada a universalist, but it's looking like Dave Parker is too!
This conversation just amazes me more and more w/ virtually every statement from either Adam or Dave.
I was asked about the doctrine of Paul vs James 2, so I answered:
FF Bruce's commentary on Galatians 5 can prove handy:
--F. F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Galatians (Erdmans 1988), 231-232.
And here is a quick cut and paste of some quotes in an article dealing w/ this topic from here...
For the purposes of this discussion, you can consider me in agreement w/ the author of that article.
My own brief commentary is this:
Paul discusses forensic justification of the dead, dirty sinner before a loving, yes, but also holy and just God in various psgs thru the NT, including Romans 2-10, most of Galatians, heavy references in Colossians, and Ephesians 1-2 (among other places). It is out of these places that the Reformation doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone has been derived. I say "Reformation doctrine" simply to give it a name and set it apart, but I will be happy to defend it from biblical exegesis.
James, by contrast, as noted above, is not discussing justification of the sinner before God.
A final note - what does James' "justification" mean, then? It is the validation before witnesses of the faith that exists. In the case of Abraham, for example, he lifts the knife to kill Isaac and thus validates the fact that he has faith in the eyes of:
-Isaac
-Sarah his wife
-the billions who have read Genesis over the centuries
The problems of the conundrum you think I have are manifold.
1) Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace, NOT by works.
Romans 3:28 says we are justified by grace apart from the works of the Law.
Romans 11:6 says that grace mixed with works is no longer grace.
Scripture thus contradicts Scripture if what you have said is true.
2) The context of the psgs out of which we derive the Pauline doctrine of justification are clearly related to justification.
The context of James 2 is not.
3) We don't know how to be saved.
Problem is, Dave, you are really giving me the impression that you believe all people will be saved (when you said "our belief or faith that Christ did these things for us is evidence of our realization that we’re no longer condemned").
2 questions:
1) Do you believe that all people are saved? If not, is the vast majority of humanity (who have ever lived) saved, ie, will they be in Heaven?
2) What is your scriptural argument for the position expressed in your answer to my 1st question?
Peace,
ALAN
This conversation just amazes me more and more w/ virtually every statement from either Adam or Dave.
I was asked about the doctrine of Paul vs James 2, so I answered:
FF Bruce's commentary on Galatians 5 can prove handy:
"To seek it [justification] through faith in Christ was to seek it on the ground of God’s grace; to seek it through legal works was to seek it on the ground of their own merit…Paul has already made it clear (3:10) that those who seek justification through legal works do not attain it (cf. Rom 11:7), but rather incur the curse of the law; what he emphasizes here is the incompatibility of faith and works, of divine grace and human merit, where justification of the sinner before God is in question.
Here [5:5] is such a reference, however; by contrast with the vain hope of righteousness by legal works, he says, we who believe in Christ are enabled by the Spirit, through faith, to wait confidently for the hope of righteousness. The law holds out no such sure hope as this. The ‘hope of righteousness’ is the hope of a favourable verdict in the last judgment (Rom 2:5-16). For those who believe in Christ such a verdict is assured in advance by the present experience of justification by faith…In their case the eschatological verdict of ‘not guilty’ is already realized."
--F. F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Galatians (Erdmans 1988), 231-232.
And here is a quick cut and paste of some quotes in an article dealing w/ this topic from here...
"There is no reason to assume that James was commenting on Paul. Notice that there is no reference in his epistle to Jewish/Gentile relations in the church, which is the point of departure for the Pauline doctrine.
And there is no reason to assume that James is using the word in the same specialized sense as it acquires in Pauline thought. A word is not a doctrine. The reason we have a Pauline doctrine of justification is not because Paul uses the word, but because he has laid out a detailed theological model of justification—such as you don’t find in James.
From what I can tell, James is making a much simpler point, where faith and works are equivalent to hearing and doing (1:22-25). Don’t be hearers of the word only, but doers as well. This is a common admonition in Scripture...faith is not the ground of our justification. The ground of our justification is penal substitution. Faith is merely a condition of its individual application to the sinner...sanctification is a necessary condition of salvation, but not a condition of justification.
...we’re not talking in generic terms about man’s relation to God, but in specific terms about the sinner’s relation to his Judge."
For the purposes of this discussion, you can consider me in agreement w/ the author of that article.
My own brief commentary is this:
Paul discusses forensic justification of the dead, dirty sinner before a loving, yes, but also holy and just God in various psgs thru the NT, including Romans 2-10, most of Galatians, heavy references in Colossians, and Ephesians 1-2 (among other places). It is out of these places that the Reformation doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone has been derived. I say "Reformation doctrine" simply to give it a name and set it apart, but I will be happy to defend it from biblical exegesis.
James, by contrast, as noted above, is not discussing justification of the sinner before God.
A final note - what does James' "justification" mean, then? It is the validation before witnesses of the faith that exists. In the case of Abraham, for example, he lifts the knife to kill Isaac and thus validates the fact that he has faith in the eyes of:
-Isaac
-Sarah his wife
-the billions who have read Genesis over the centuries
The problems of the conundrum you think I have are manifold.
1) Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace, NOT by works.
Romans 3:28 says we are justified by grace apart from the works of the Law.
Romans 11:6 says that grace mixed with works is no longer grace.
Scripture thus contradicts Scripture if what you have said is true.
2) The context of the psgs out of which we derive the Pauline doctrine of justification are clearly related to justification.
The context of James 2 is not.
3) We don't know how to be saved.
Problem is, Dave, you are really giving me the impression that you believe all people will be saved (when you said "our belief or faith that Christ did these things for us is evidence of our realization that we’re no longer condemned").
2 questions:
1) Do you believe that all people are saved? If not, is the vast majority of humanity (who have ever lived) saved, ie, will they be in Heaven?
2) What is your scriptural argument for the position expressed in your answer to my 1st question?
Peace,
ALAN
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
Hell is not in the Bible
Adam said:
But it's just not a possible position to hold if you care about the Bible.
Matt 7:13 - For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction,
Matt 7:23 - And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Matt 10:28 - Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
Matt 12:37-41 - for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned...The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Matt 23:33 - You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matt 25:41 & 46 - Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
John 5:24 - He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:28-29 - Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
You who claim to care so much about not making Jesus out to be a liar, you have no excuse not to believe in the eternal punishment of the reprobate.
Hear what the rest of the Scripture has to say:
Is 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Dan 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Rom 2:5 - But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:8 - but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:12 - For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 5:18 - Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death
Rom 8:3 - By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh
2 Thess 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 12-13 - 12These are blemishes on your love feasts...casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Rev 20:15 - And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There's more where that came from, but that's a good start.
And what exactly is your Biblical basis for "destruction" (?)...there is no Hell in the BibleYou know, you're not the only one in the world who has a problem w/ the doctrine of Hell. Mormons do, JWs do, atheists definitely do, liberals do.
But it's just not a possible position to hold if you care about the Bible.
Matt 7:13 - For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction,
Matt 7:23 - And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Matt 10:28 - Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
Matt 12:37-41 - for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned...The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Matt 23:33 - You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matt 25:41 & 46 - Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
John 5:24 - He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:28-29 - Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
You who claim to care so much about not making Jesus out to be a liar, you have no excuse not to believe in the eternal punishment of the reprobate.
Hear what the rest of the Scripture has to say:
Is 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Dan 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Rom 2:5 - But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:8 - but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:12 - For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 5:18 - Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death
Rom 8:3 - By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh
2 Thess 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 12-13 - 12These are blemishes on your love feasts...casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Rev 20:15 - And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There's more where that came from, but that's a good start.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)