Showing posts with label Roman Catholicism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Roman Catholicism. Show all posts

Wednesday, February 17, 2016

President of Focus On The Family Assumes a Papist Into Heaven

*Editorial Note: Pulpit & Pen continues in unrepentant sin and enabling of the ongoing sin of Jordan Hall. While it is my understanding that P&P does not plan to take down the content I contributed, any role I can play in reducing their traffic until they repent, I will. Thus I migrate this article here. 

Focus on the Family is an influential organisation with a highly-regarded voice in many professing Christian circles, despite their recent foray into amazing sinful stupidity by legitimising and promoting the deployment of chemical weaponry against helpless victims. Call that an error of orthopraxy.

Now let’s take a look at a recent error of orthodoxy on their part and ask ourselves: What is it that defines Christianity? The obvious answer is the Word of God. What is the single most important message therein? The Gospel. The Gospel, I would argue, is comprised of more than simply an explanation of the principle that was famously (re)iterated in the Protestant Reformation – sola fide, justification by faith alone. It is something more, but it is certainly not less.

Now, as you are no doubt aware, Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia, thought by many to be a conservative stalwart and a major ally of Christian values in the United States, has passed out of this life. Online eulogies abound for the man. It is always important to hold fast to the Word of God in times of grief, loss, or insecurity about one’s individual or national future. This is especially true of people in positions of leadership and influence, as many people look to them for guidance in such circumstances.

Jim Daly, president of Focus on the Family, has commented on Scalia’s passing.
Jim Daly, president of Focus on the Family, called the judge’s death “a blow to all Americans who believe in the rule of law and his adherence to an originalist’s view of the Constitution.”
The court’s longest serving member was “one of the greatest jurists of our age,” Daly said. “He was a terrific thinker with a fluid pen. Most importantly, he was a devout believer in Jesus Christ. Many of the nation’s most impressive attorneys stood before him. Now, the justice stands before the ultimate Judge of the world,” he continued, adding that he “attempted to save our Constitution. Now, his faith in his Lord and Savior has saved him.”
My intention here is not to make any comment on the eternal state of the late Justice Scalia. Let us simply note that Scalia was a professing Roman Catholic until the day of his death. The Roman Catholic Church explicitly and clearly repudiates the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It may be that individual Roman Catholics differ in good faith from the Church’s official teaching. Still others may be ignorant. While it is difficult to imagine that such a learned man as Scalia could have been ignorant of the matter or willfully inconsistent so as to accept sola fide as well as the unjustifiability of many Roman practices such as prayer to the dead, veneration of images and statues, subjugating the Scripture to the authority of the Magisterium in a de facto sense, and the blasphemous Mass, but continue to participate in the Roman Church, it is technically possible. One must be open to the fact that none of us actually know the heart of another, which is why God is the ultimate Judge and you and I are not.
That said, we must understand that the fruits of his life did not reflect an undeniable, exemplary, and undiluted devotion to the biblical Gospel. (Had it done so or approached it, he would have called the Roman Church to repentance and left it long ago.) Therefore, we must not speak with such certainty about where he is today. This is, one might say, a properly nuanced view.
So why does Daly, who is supposed to uphold the Gospel as his primary job function, assume Scalia through the pearly gates without any pause or hesitation? Daly might cite certain of Scalia’s more private correspondences as evidence of his second birth such as the following, written to a Presbyterian minister:
even when the deceased was an admirable person—indeed, especially when the deceased was an admirable person—praise for his virtues can cause us to forget that we are praying for, and giving thanks for, God’s inexplicable mercy to a sinner. (My goodness, that seems more like a Presbyterian thought than a Catholic one!)
(Source)
Indeed it does seem more of a Reformation thought than a Roman one. What sort of confidence should that give anyone to pontificate with any certainty on whether such a man loved Jesus more than the faulty traditions of man that comprise so much of Roman doctrine and practice? And if someone does glibly take a firm position on the matter with misplaced confidence, what confidence ought we have in his reliability?

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

The Oklahoma City Satanic Black Mass

So this past Sunday in downtown OKC a group of Satanists rented a small event hall in the Civic Center to do a Black Mass. They had even somehow purloined a consecrated Eucharistic host but the threat of legal action made 'em give it back. Both of which events are really funny to me.


As I had expected, out in front of the Civic Center in the plaza, it was a chaotic, noisy madhouse. Pelagian street preachers (those who I've been told sometimes call themselves the "Pervert Patrol" from Tulsa) (see here what I think of them) with their bullhorns preaching a bunch of not particularly persuasive hate-filled screeds, Black Israelites bellowing at the top of their lungs, hundreds of Roman Catholics praying responsive prayers (mostly to Mary) (who else, right?) with their own amps and holding idols and large pictures of Mary, mainline Protestant groups singing milquetoast "worship" songs, some other Roman Catholics playing bagpipes, people blowing shofars...



Notice how the "My" is capitalised. This is supposedly Mary speaking, and she gets the divinised reference to a nomina sacra, as it were. And where is Jesus in the photo? Nowhere. Tell me this isn't idolatry so that I may have a good laugh.



Anyway, as I expected, virtually nobody actually attending the Black Mass hung around outside and talked to anyone. Like last time, all the paying attendees slunk in the side to enter and skulked out the side to exit.

Really, in a vacuum this event was not a big deal. According to press who observed the Black Mass on the inside, about 40 people attended. Seriously, who cares? The only reason this attracted so much media attention is because the Satanists played the Media Whore game and the local Roman Catholic archdiocese played their willing dance partner. Thus the Roman Catholics' efforts entirely backfired in my opinion. They were mad about this event.

But, happily, it attracted such a large crowd that some servants of the Lord Jesus were able to take advantage to outreach to them.

I prepared a tract centering around the Roman Mass. I was thinking I'd probably do some street preaching too. 

When we arrived, though, it was chaotic. The noise and clamor was astonishing. And then just as the Roman prayers were reaching their climax, a rainbow appeared in the sky. Not particularly surprising, since the sun was at a convenient angle for such and it had rained on us a little when we were a mile from the Civic Center. But many of the RCs took it for a sign from heaven. Probably the most interesting moment of the evening was when, right after I had turned to find what everyone was staring at and then spotted the rainbow, this lady materialised at my side and gushed about how we're winning and God is on our side and we have nothing to fear and isn't it awesome? I had no idea what to say and so just kinda smiled and nodded like a doofus. I belatedly offered her a tract and she smiled and shook her head as she walked away and I was just standing there like what just happened? What a weird environment!



The attitude of many of the RCs was best summed up in: "why are you talking to us when the real enemy is inside?" At which point I tried to remind them that they're the ones who are members of the religion that anathematised the gospel and perverts the Lord's Table.


My friend gave out a lot of the aforementioned tracts about the Mass; I had less success with that. I had some good conversations. I rebuked the Pelagian street preachers, who then rebuked me for wasting time rebuking them when there were hundreds of lost people just over yonder. I told one of them (this guy) I can do both and this is worthwhile, and he rudely told me to get on with it, like a schoolboy double-dog-daring me to preach, to show him how it's done.
There's only so much childishness a man can take before you just don't know what to say anymore. It's like it's hard to talk intelligently, like the dumb creeps into your own brain by osmosis.
But I figured I'd rather not waste the opportunity or let my 'yes' be 'no', so I fired up my brand new amp and preached about the Mass for a while at that point. The Pelagian guy had a camera on me pretty much the whole time as if to intimidate me or prove a point. The preach went well, and when I was done he came over, almost apologetic, and said "hey that was good stuff, solid preaching."
I wasn't sure I wanted his affirmation, but I smiled and said thanks before turning to talk to some Romanists who wanted to comment.



Aaaaaannnndddd also my camera malfunctioned and didn't record any audio. Disappointing, as there were numerous interesting incidents.

But at least I praise God that the Gospel went out to many. I am left dumbfounded at how few Christians were there to witness of the Gospel, in a place where hundreds of people are gathered in a place in order to publicly discuss a spiritual matter. Where are you, church of God?

Thursday, September 18, 2014

A Grab-Bag of Roman Catholic Mistakes

Roman Catholic: Hmm, guess I won't be joining. By the way y'all, there would be no bible without Catholics. Who do you think put the table of contents in there? Look it up folks!

Me: there would be no bible without Catholics.

All this time I thought God wrote the Bible.

Who do you think put the table of contents in there?

1) The people of God. Not Rome and not Roman Catholics.
2) Rome doesn't have a closed Old Testament Canon. See the book of 2 Esdras - the Council of Trent passed over that book in silence.
3) Rome doesn't have a canon of infallible teachings.

Rome is actually in a much worse position than Sola Scripturists on that question. MUCH worse.


RC:
The bible is a collection of books inspired by God and written by men. Catholics also hold the bible to be the inerrant word of God and the canon of the bible was established at the Council of Nicea in the 4th century. The OT consisted of the canon established by the Jews and would have been known by the Apostles. The NT canon needed to be established because there were many "gospels" at the time and some had to be excluded, such as the Gospel of Thomas, Peter, and numerous others. The Church Fathers met in a council to codify the canon of scripture until Martin Luther thought he knew better almost a thousand years later.


Me: Catholics also hold the bible to be the inerrant word of God

The RCC thinks that evolution is true. Thus your statement is false.

the canon of the bible was established at the Council of Nicea in the 4th century

That is untrue. Nicea did not deal with the canon at all. Show your evidence.

The OT consisted of the canon established by the Jews and would have been known by the Apostles

RCC claims to have apostolic succession. So is 2 Esdras canonical or not? Just answer the question.

The NT canon needed to be established because there were many "gospels" at the time and some had to be excluded, such as the Gospel of Thomas, Peter, and numerous others.

You're mistaken again. Those other "gospels" were written much later than the canonical Gospels.

The Church Fathers met in a council to codify the canon of scripture

No, they didn't. This is fiction.

until Martin Luther thought he knew better almost a thousand years later.

Pope Gregory the Great, Athanasius, and Cardinal Cajetan all held to DIFFERENT canons of the Old Testament than that which Rome affirmed at the Council of Trent.

Friday, February 14, 2014

Witnessing to a papist

A young papist man wrote in to the Abolish Human Abortion Facebook page. Here is what ensued:

  • Papist
    • The Catholic church teaches abortion is a sin and anyone who gives, administers, or is an accomplice to one is excommunicated.
  • Abolish Human Abortion
    • Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are still RCs in good standing.

      Thousands of RCs around the world have aborted their children.

      You know that what you've said is not true.

      -Rhology

  • Papist
    • But like many Protestant churches as well there are those who don't follow the teachings, they just undermine the true meaning of Christianity don't you think. Nancy and Joe may be Catholics but they don't fully practice the faith same with many of the people's in your congregation No?

      what I said is true and you can find it in Catholic teachings everywhere except by those who do not practice the faith

  • Abolish Human Abortion
    • You misunderstand. Nancy and Joe are high profile RCs who are explicitly and obviously pro-abortion and have done more to further child sacrifice than any individual RC girl who gets an abortion. And yet they are not excommunicated. You have to ask yourself why that is. Stop making excuses. You know it's because the RC hierarchy is not as strong against abortion as you'd like to think. They are kowtowing to those in power.

      Man, stop making excuses for your church and start making a change. See how far you get.

      I pray you'll understand some time soon that there exists no love for the truth in Rome because there is no love for the true Gospel there.

      -Rhology

  • Papist
    • I PRAY YOU STOP BEING SO DAMN IGNORANT. Please forgive me for coming this but you aren't understanding any thing I am saying. Joe and Nancy may not be excommunicated but most likely they are living in a world full of sin I don't know their personal like. The Catholic church hates abortion and we stand strongly against them but you are blind to that fact because you choose to listen to your just as ignorant pastor.


  • Abolish Human Abortion
    • You respond so harshly and with such a lack of love that I am pretty sure you feel the pricks of what I have said.

      My friend, come now. You don't know anything about me or my pastor. The problem is not that I am ignorant. The problem is that ROME IS NOT DOING WHAT IT OUGHT TO DO AND WHAT IT SAYS IT DOES. You know that as well as I do.

      Now you have a choice to make. You can either man up and do what you know you ought to do, or you can continue to suppress the truth in wickedness, and in that case God help you.

      And in either case, I urge you as strongly as I can not to put any trust in your own merit or the merit of any mere human, alive or dead, for your justification before God, forgiveness of your sin, and eternal life. The Bible teaches that we are forgiven and born from above by grace ALONE thru faith ALONE, by Jesus ALONE. Examine Rome's doctrine carefully, lest you be led astray.

      Peace,
      Rhology


  • Papist
    • I know I did and again I apologize but it really gets me mad when people assume things of the Catholic church. But you are not justified by faith alone you aren't saved yet until the day you die and actually see that God has granted you to come into heaven. Salvation is a daily battle and actions is where faith is put into to tests the Catholic church fights for illegalizing abortion, gay marriage, the death penalty, contraceptives, and much much more. Catholics love life and I defend harshly because I love the Catholic church because it is the Truth and it stands up for the truth, it stands up for morality, justice, and life. The Catholic church is so beautiful and amazing in all the wonderful doctrines and teaches FREE WILL we don't forces down people's throat. We teach Jesus in the Eucharist where the bread and wine aren't just symbols but actually Jesus present there. I'm done with the harsh words because I calmed down a lot and I really do love you and everybody and I want you to know that the Catholic church loves you and is opens to you. When you fully understand the full meaning of Christianity you're going to see that the Catholic church truly shows all of this and much much more.

      And again I apologize for responding harsh but I mean everything with great love


  • Abolish Human Abortion
    a few seconds ago
    Abolish Human Abortion
    • My friend, this:
      \\But you are not justified by faith alone you aren't saved yet until the day you die and actually see that God has granted you to come into heaven\\

      is a DIFFERENT GOSPEL.
      One simply cannot read the NT honestly and conclude that what you have said here is correct.
      Why does Jesus say that His sheep will never perish in John 10?
      Why does it say so many times in the NT that Jesus save**D** us?
      Why does it talk about having peace with God, already, by faith?
      How are you ever going to be good enough to merit your own justification? How much is good enough?
      Why do you think that when the Bible says that NO ONE SEEKS GOD and NO ONE DOES GOOD, it actually means that people DO seek God and people DO good?

      You sinned against me earlier when you reacted badly and harshly. Sure, you apologised, but sin is not atoned for by apologies. It is either atoned for in its entirety by the death of Jesus on the cross or it is partially atoned for by your performance. Are you telling me that you actually think you'll ever be good enough to help merit atonement for your sin? When is that going to begin? When are you going to start getting good enough so that you'll stop digging the hole and start filling it back in again with your wonderful obedience?

      If the RCC stands up for life like you say, why are Pelosi and Biden still members in good standing?
      You live in a fantasy world. Your allegiance is to Rome and not to the truth. I beg you to reconsider and repent. This sin will destroy you.

      This statement makes zero sense:
      \\teaches FREE WILL we don't forces down people's throat\\

      Your church has burned countless "heretics" at the stake, including many hundreds of my spiritual forebears and has never apologised for it, and you want to tell me that the RCC doesn't force things? RCC is one of the most guilty at forcing things.


      \\We teach Jesus in the Eucharist where the bread and wine aren't just symbols but actually Jesus present there\\

      Whoopie. It's not commendable to teach what the Bible doesn't teach just b/c you want to be able to say "we take the text literally!" So what?
      And you don't actually take it literally. You don't think you literally die when you go under the baptismal water (and you don't actually baptise most people by immersion anyway). You don't think you're drinking blood and eating raw meat at the Eucharist.
      Seriously, man. All you're showing is that you're a slave to the traditions of the Roman Church. They own you. Jesus wants to own you. He wants to adopt you as His child, which is a seal that is irrevocable. Repent of your sin and trust Jesus as I talked about earlier. Forsake this church that teaches false things.

      -Rhology

Monday, October 14, 2013

-ism and -ist

There are still people who don't know the difference, it seems. For example, someone who wrote in to the Abolish Human Abortion page today:

Dear Sirs:
I am Catholic. I march to save babies, spend time protesting at abortuaries, give my income to support crisis pregnancy centers and have led pro life groups in my Church. I pray daily for an end to the holocaust of abortion. A few days ago, your fb page stated you don't bash Catholic theology or traditions. Yet, Rhology states yesterday (here)  "I affirm 100% that the Roman Catholic is satanic and leads people to hell and has anathematized the gospel." These statements are inconsistent. Can you clarify for me what you mean by bashing the Catholic religion? I am perplexed how you can claim to not bash us but your chief blogger is affirming that we are 100 percent satanic. I'm not sure if I need to explain to you, but that creates division in the movement to save babies and as long as AHA supports statements like that, your reputation will continue to suffer and sadly the cause of saving babies will be harmed.  I would appreciate a clarification or explanation. Thanks for your time and consideration,


Hello,

How precisely are those statements inconsistent?
On the one hand we entirely deny that we bash Catholics.
On the other hand we entirely affirm that the Roman Catholic religion teaches a false gospel which leads people to Hell, as it incurs the anathema of Galatians 1:6-9 by adding works to faith as a pre-requisite for justification before God.

Are you incapable of distinguishing an -ism from an -ist? That is, a system of beliefs from an adherent to such a system?

Bashing Catholics might look like this: "Catholics are all uglyheads and poopypantses."
We are calling all those who believe in a false gospel or no gospel at all to repent and believe on Jesus for forgiveness of ALL of their sin and grace to live a life pleasing to Him in the power of the Spirit.

\\your chief blogger is affirming that we are 100 percent satanic.\\

No, I wasn't. I was 100% affirming that the RELIGION is satanic. Huge difference.
And the religion isn't 100% satanic. It's not even all that much wrong, quantity-wise. But that small quantity makes a huge difference!


\\that creates division in the movement to save babies\\

No, rather it exposes the division that already exists. The Roman Council of Trent created the division 480 years ago when it anathematised the true Gospel of grace.


\\your reputation will continue to suffer\\

Let our reputation be always and forever that we stood and relied on the Gospel and never compromised it.

And on a more personal note, my friend - you need to repent of following this false religion. It adds works to faith for justification, adds mediators in between a man and Jesus, and usurps for a mere man the titles of God the Father ("Holy Father"), God the Son ("alter Christus") and God the Holy Spirit ("Vicar of Christ") themselves. Repent and be saved and delivered from this madness. Flee to Christ. Repent and believe and bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Peace to you,
Rhology

Thursday, May 16, 2013

The Holy Innocents' Foundation of Oklahoma is guilty

What do you know? Roman Catholics actually opposing abolition of human abortion.
Whodathunk.

Monday, February 11, 2013

Mutual understanding


Scott Alt, replying to a commenter to the effect that I am willfully blind to think that the Scripture teaches both of the following facts:
1) Believers who have reached the end of their earthly lives are alive to God, and
2) God forbids us from talking to dead people,

says the following:
Scott_Alt33p· 20 hours agoI think that's right, though the concept of an obstinate refusal to see suggests the kind of freedom of the will that a Calvinist would deny. Interesting to speculate how Rhology would get himself out of that conundrum.

Thus he shows that he doesn't even have the first idea what Calvinism says about the human will. Or, say, Romans 8:

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
It's just funny. Chalk this up to another "Protestant-to-atheist-to-Protestant-to-Catholic con­vert" who never got close to understanding Reformed theology. The problem here is that Alt thinks he does understand it. And the funny thing is that I get accused of misunderstanding Roman Catholic theology all the time but rarely does anyone attempt to demonstrate where I've mistaken its meaning. That's just projection.

(Please leave any comments at Beggars All.)

Wednesday, January 30, 2013

Go read this article "You say that as if it were a bad thing"

By John Bugay, in reply to the very, very common and very, very intellectually dishonest Roman Catholic 30,000 33,000 40,000 denominations "argument".

Friday, September 21, 2012

Wednesday, August 01, 2012

Tyler McNabb's deleted post combox

Tyler McNabb, to whom I responded in my previous post, has entirely removed the article announcing his apostasy from his blog. It is strangely similar to Jason Stellman's recent publishing and then subsequent removal of his own apostannoucement.

The interaction in his combox was lively and entertaining, as well as quite invigorating as again, numerous Roman Catholics made attempts to defend their position, authority, and epistemology, which attempts, one after the other, were shown to be without any substance. Sadly, I counted precisely zero points that were anything close to new or innovative, that could serve to overcome the longstanding Sola Scripturist refutations to typical Roman Catholic arguments. Instead, they just served up the same old stale wafers.
Amazingly, even such a luminary as Patrick Madrid showed how out of touch he is with the ineffectiveness of the rusty, senile Catholic Answers canards.

So that you can see just how well the interaction went for the Roman Catholics there, I will reproduce below the comments from the blogpost, as I saved the page periodically throughout the day yesterday, having learned from Jason Stellman's flip-flop. Out of courtesy for Mr. McNabb, I will not reproduce the text of his article, but simply the comments in which I interacted with his post and with other commenters.

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4
Thread 5
Thread 6


Monday, July 30, 2012

The shallow route

One Tyler Dalton McNabb, a street evangelist, formerly affiliated with the good folks at Way of the Master/Living Waters, has decided to swim the Tiber.

It's often instructive to read these types of conversion stories with a careful eye toward the reasons they give for forsaking the Gospel of grace. It's like there's a dozen or so common cheap "arguments" that proved persuasive to the feckless new convert, and they slide glibly by seemingly without any awareness of the standing rebuttals that were available to them and have been for years and years without effective reply from the other side of the Tiber. No, rather, it's as if Catholic Answers is the final word on the matter. Don't listen to men like the Triablogue, Eric Svendsen, or James White, because as we all know, they're just too mean and nasty to be taken seriously.

I left a comment on his post. We'll see if it makes it through moderation. Here it is:


Hello,

I am quite saddened to hear of what amounts to apostasy and I have some reactions to what you've written here.

Now coming back to how my graduate studies in philosophy helped pave the way, it was by reading the medieval Catholic philosophers like Anselm, Aquinas, and Molina, as well as reading contemporary Catholic philosophers like Feser, van Inwagen, Stump, and Flint. Reading philosophers like these allowed me to see that Catholics were not the enemies.

How funny. Reading the Scripture allowed me to see that Roman dogma (not "Catholics", however) is an (not the) enemy.
Unsurprising that someone who shows little indication of being grounded firmly in Scripture would fall into such error.
What is a little surprising is that someone who is attempting to sound like he's really thought this all the way through would say something like "Catholics were not the enemies". I mean, are you reacting against backwoods fundies or some other class of ignoramus Protestant, or are you supposed to be appealing to people who have a halfway-decent idea of what they're talking about and what the true issues at hand are?



There was even one night last Mother’s Day where I had a dream that a man was calling me to become a Catholic. What is even more strange is that the same night, my wife had a spiritual dream. The conclusion of her dream was that we were not to go to Israel but we were to help defend the faith here. Why were these dreams so strange? These dreams were strange for us because the few weeks beforehand, we were praying on the topics of going to Israel and if Rome’s doctrines were true. Needless to say, we attended Mass that day.

The other day I had a disgusting borderline-pornographic dream, I'm sorry to say.
I doubt you'd think, however, that I'd be justified in now engaging in pædophilia.


as I figured presuppositionally, if Peter is reining still, then Rome is true

Well, he's not. He died.
*Jesus* is reigning still.
It's pretty common for Romanists to say stuff like that, about Peter, other Popes, or Mary. It's amazing to me that they don't see how it clearly denigrates Jesus.


It was overwhelming to see that the early fathers believed in the real presence/sacrifice in regards to the Eucharist (some even quoting Mal. for justification), baptismal regeneration, bishops, and confession (Cyprian, Origen, Chrysostom, Augustine etc.). Have I mentioned how nice it is to now have a Church history?

You must have missed how Rome claims the support of the unanimous consent of the "Fathers" for several of her dogmas, and that there is no such consent.
You must have missed that numerous "Fathers" teach "Protestant" doctrine, such as sola fide, iconoclasm, and Sola Scriptura.
You clearly missed the implication that you're relying on men like Origen - the universalism-espousing father of allegorical interpretation uber alles - as one of your guidiing lights. How do you justify the picking and choosing in which you have to engage?
Oh wait, let me guess - the modern Magisterium told you which writings of which men we are to acknowledge as prooftexts, and others are to be ignored/rejected/suppressed.
"Fathers" are not our authority. God is. Correct me if I missed it but I don't see much indication at all in this post that the Scriptures were your authority even as you began this journey, that you were looking for how best to follow what God said, as opposed to finding a system that you could overlay on top and prooftext with at least some degree of credibility. Sad.

Peace,
Rhology



Wednesday, June 13, 2012

CatholicNick hasn't learned much

...at least not on the issue of "church unity" and the 29,000 30,000 33,000 58 zillion denominations argument.

Here is the comment to which I reply.


 I don't see why infallibility is necessary to have formally-established dogma. If a group gets together and says "this is our formally-established dogma. Nobody is infallible of course but this is our formally-established dogma, b/c although nobody is infallible, this dogma is actually true", what's wrong with that? You need to give an argument that infallibility is a necessary precondition for formally-established dogma. A Prot church DOES have a single, unified hierarchy. I have told you this many times; it's disappointing to see you haven't learned anything in the years since I pointed it out to you.

Instead, every pastor is self-appointed and does their own thing. That depends entirely on the church/denomination.

What makes you think these overgeneralisations do anyone any good?


  The PCA has no authority over someone like James White

Duh, but PCA does have authority over someone like a PCA pastor.
Just like an EO priest doesn't have any authority over someone like CatholicNick


  You're stopping short of asking the full question: not "join A church" but WHICH?

Well, of course, but we each have to answer the same question. Which church? Which infallible interpreter? EOC? WatchTower? Salt Lake City? Seriously, these answers have been around for many years. Why haven't you advanced the argument any?


Surely Jesus wasn't saying "I don't care which denomination you attend, just as long as you attend one".

Please argue for this assertion.



Suppose Jason (Stellman) wants to dump the PCA and go solo, so now he's attending his own start-up church. Is that just as good?

If he did so b/c he doubted paedobaptism and embraced credobaptism, that would be a good thing*. If PCA went apostate like Rome has, it could be a good thing. If he did it to reach previously unreached ppl, sure, why not? For reasons of swapping out doctrine, no, it wouldn't be good, b/c PCA's doctrine is very, very good. But all churches are "start-up" churches, so I don't really understand what you're saying. RCC does not extend back from Jesus and the apostles; neither does EOC or any other church.



This only begs the question as to what is "Major" and what isn't. 

Of course it does, but the NT tells us. And I already reminded you of it. A shame you once again refused to advance the argument.


It further raises the question why join a Church that is wrong on "smaller things" rather than seek out or form one that is right on both Major and Minor?

I did, and I found one that is about the closest to right on things major and minor that's in my area. I'm blessed; there are several like that and I am a member of one of them.


Once you start making a list of "Majors" then you'll see things begin to break down.

That's false; I've done that before and it worked out fine. There are also these things called confessions that have stood for hundreds of years. Those also work quite well.


 The difference between Jason and others is that Jason was willing to attempt to derive such a list.

No, the difference between him and others is that he had already given up on Sola Scriptura.


You don't realize that you're essentially acting as Pope when you go around saying "smaller issues like pædobaptism or church polity".

You need to argue for this. I don't think I'm infallible; I merely recognise that I have responsibility to do what Jesus told me to do. And I've already pointed out where the NT teaches the major/minor distinction.


Who says those are "smaller issues" when HISTORICALLY those and similar issues have bitterly divided Protestantism.

The fact that they don't corrupt the Gospel or necessary doctrine fundamentally "says" those are smaller issues. As for whether they have bitterly divided ppl, why should it bother me that men before me have been sinners and let conflicts go farther than they should have? And why doesn't it bother YOU that the same is true of RCC and RC history? One of us can deal with his own history.



Luther and Calvin hated and damned the anabaptists, and the more traditional Confessionally Reformed and Baptists would still find each other objectionable and closed communion.

So? RC and EO bishops/popes/patriarchs have hated and damned each other, and they would still find each other objectionable and closed communion.


  it's absurd to suggest a hierarchic, democratic, and individualist polity are equally acceptable.

I didn't suggest that. I"m afraid you may be having difficulty with the idea that people can recognise that a given idea is a minor matter and also that someone else is wrong on that minor matter and also that, since it's minor, it does not merit wholehearted anathemas. Since Jesus and the apostles did that, who am I to demur?


If you are in a debate about some major point of doctrine or morality with a good friend who's of a different denomination, which "church" do you approach for correction as per Christ's instructions in Matthew 18 to "tell it to the church"?

At the risk of stating the obvious, no church. How am I supposed to address "the church" when we're not part of the same church? How would you deal with an EO friend about his disaffirmation of the filioque?



*It should go without saying that I am a Baptist. I'm speaking as a Baptist here, since Nick asked me the question. 




(Please leave any comments at the Beggars All post.)

Friday, June 01, 2012

Catholics for Excommunication

Seen in the right-side advertisement column on my Facebook page today (which, if you think about it, is ironic and sort of funny):






Links to here.


Is not the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on contraception crystal-clear? Perpiscuous Perspicuous?

Or, let us ask it another way:
What might we label a so-called Roman Catholic who advocates ignoring what the Magisterium teaches and instead agreeing with a group of laymen over against what the Magisterium has clearly taught?

Well, what might we label a so-called member of a PCA church who advocates ignoring what the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches and instead agreeing with a group of laymen over against what the WCF has clearly taught?
What might we label a so-called member of a Reformed Baptist church who advocates ignoring what the London Baptist Confession of Faith teaches and instead agreeing with a group of laymen over against what the LBCF has clearly taught? 

In the latter two cases, would not many of our Roman Catholic friends point excitedly to the fact as evidence of the 29 30 33-thousand denominations myth? And/or of disunity among Protestants and chaos? A blueprint for anarchy?

Shall we expect "Catholics for Choice" to face church discipline pretty soon?

(Please leave any comments at Beggars All.)

Tuesday, January 24, 2012

Conversing with Roman Catholic Phillip Jude

Some comments I left over at Triablogue.

Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

It is totally licit for us to part ways on many subjects. 

How do you know when it is licit to disagree with the Pope and when it is not?



what does it mean to "repent"? What is "baptism"? 

Repent is "metanoia" in the Greek and signifies turning away. From sin and the old man, specifically.
Baptism is what an adult does upon repenting and putting his faith in Christ, and carries all sorts of other meaning.
I don't get it; what's so hard about these? I'm sure you've read the NT. Why didn't you look there to answer your question?



There is real disagreement among Christians.

What is the connection between this statement and the previous one? So what? Do you presume that some people don't get things wrong, or that disagreement necessarily leads to unclarity of explanation? If it does, what of the many internal divisions within RCC?



Who's to say that really constitutes baptism, repentance, belief, salvation, and so on?

The Holy Spirit, in the Bible.



The Roman hierarchy isn't necessary for communion with Christ.

That's not what Cyprian and Boniface said.
These propositions are not nearly as simple as you make them seem. There is real disagreement among Christians. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be dozens of non-Protestant sects. Who's to say that really constitutes submission to the Magisterium?



The Roman hierarchy...is merely a necessary evil

Wow, the only thing I'd change about that is to remove the "necessary". The rest is greatly appreciated.



God Himself could not prevent a monstrous bureaucracy, given the circumstances!

Why do you not have a problem with a "monstrous bureaucracy, given the circumstances" but do have a problem with some levels of disagreement among believers, given the circumstances?




If...the papacy was permanently and utterly erased, I believe the Church would remain united.


Could you please define "united"? Since you lack monolithic beliefs on many important doctrines, as you yourself have even illustrated here, what real meaning does that word have?
1/19/2012 10:46 AM 

Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

I put great trust in a man like Irenaeus

YOu mean you put great trust in what you think Irenaeus wrote and meant throughout his life. That's not the same thing.
You don't know that what Irenaeus said is what the church of his time believed.
You don't know how what Irenaeus wrote was received by other churches. Any mere claims to "we believe thus" are not necessarily true. Not without proof, and more proof than Irenaeus' say-so.
You don't know whether Irenaeus was held in the highest respect by his contemporaries. Maybe you're reading the Charles Stanley of their time - not really all that bad, but quite shallow compared to others, most of the time.
You don't know whether you have all Irenaeus' writings, or even what % his today-extant writings form of the total things he wrote over his lifetime. Thus you don't know if he ever took it all, or part of it, back.
You don't know whether what Irenaeus said in public or in private teachings actually comports with the extant writings you have.
You don't take everything that is extant from Irenaeus and believe it. You believe only the parts that the modern Roman Catholic Church has dogmatised and accepted for modern times. Why call him a "Church Father" at all? Seems to me a traditional nomenclature that fails to take the above into consideration, fails to think through the divide between what he believed and what modern Rome believes, and has served as a useful tool for you, so you decided to keep it. And it is useful - citing "Fathers" sounds so imperial, so high-fallootin', so mysteriously powerful, that often it causes a brain block within the mind of the Sola Scripturist. I myself have experienced this many times.

Hope you don't mind my input.
Peace,
Rhology


Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

he was not the Pope when he wrote "Called to Communion"

Does becoming Pope somehow supernaturally grant that one's arguments become better?



the Church allows significant latitude except on issues that are de fide or ex cathedra.

How do you know? How do you know you haven't mistaken what "the Church" allows?
How do you know that the resource(s) you read that expressed that idea to you were not actually outside the pale of acceptable Roman orthodoxy?



The New Testament is not a theological handbook. It was clearly not intended to be an exhaustive explanation of doctrine and dogma. 

And yet it pretty expressly lays out those topics. It's really not that hard.



The definitions you provided are still open to many questions.

So is the code of Canon Law, and it's many 1000s of pages. I don't see what that has to do with anything.


For instance, if the Bible is so clear on the matter of baptism, why can't Protestants settle on a single description of the sacrament? 

1) B/c some people get it wrong. We just went over this.
2) If the Roman Magisterium is so clear on the matter of abortion, why can't RCs settle on a single position on it?
3) You were just a second ago telling me that the Church allows significant latitude except on issues that are de fide or ex cathedra. Why are you acting differently toward my position? Why can't you be consistent?



Get a Catholic, an Orthodox, a Lutheran, a Calvinist, and a Baptist in the same room and ask them about the Eucharist.

True (except that there are Calvinist Baptists. I'm one.)
The Baptist one is correct.
You were just a second ago telling me that the Church allows significant latitude except on issues that are de fide or ex cathedra. Why are you acting differently toward my position? Why can't you be consistent?


bureaucracy is one thing; disagreement -- often intense and stark disagreement -- is quite another. They're two entirely different problems. 

Given that the NT expects disagreement (1 Cor 11:17-19) but knows nothing of a huge church bureaucracy, why wouldn't one be far more concerned about the latter?


We don't lack unity on the important questions

Who decides which questions are important?

Peace,
Rhology
1/19/2012 11:31 AM


Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

Only when the Holy Spirit chooses to speak through him.

How can you distinguish between when the HS is and isn't speaking thru him?



Because honest debate has existed among Catholic scholars and theologians from the very start, genuine debate that nonetheless remained within the boundaries of orthodoxy. 

Debate doesn't exist w/o controversy and disagreement, but you've been trying to criticise Prot-ism for having controversy and disagreement. I don't understand what you've been getting at.




***How do you know you haven't mistaken what "the Church" allows?
How do you know that the resource(s) you read that expressed that idea to you were not actually outside the pale of acceptable Roman orthodoxy?* ***

You're getting absurd here. This is common sense. 


That will be my answer from now on whenever you ask me about disagreements between Prots about what the Bible teaches.
Until you provide a real answer, I figure yours is good enough for me.





**And yet it pretty expressly lays out those topics. It's really not that hard.***

Obviously not clear enough, or there would be no divisions among any Christians anywhere.


You're getting absurd here. This is common sense.



The Magisterium is crystal clear. Some Catholics simply choose to deny its plain and straightforward teaching. T

...and yet some RCs don't agree. Right?
Now, take that same reasoning, apply it to the Bible's teaching on Eucharist/baptism/repentance, and voilà! Your criticisms of Prot-ism are now neutered.


On such issues, the Church has established dogma, whereas Protestants cannot get on the same page whatsoever. 

The Bible is crystal clear on these issues. Some Prots simply choose to deny its plain and straightforward teaching.
You're getting absurd here. This is common sense.



***Who decides which questions are important? ***

Scripture and Tradition, as read and interpreted by the Church Universal across space and time.


Those aren't "who"s; they're "what"s. Please answer the question.



This discussion is difficult because we have such intensely different paradigms

Your double standards don't help.
1/19/2012 11:58 AM 


Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

Hi Phillip,

Without a court of final appeal, how do Protestants settle disputes? 

We do. In terms of truth, it's the Bible.
In terms of authority, it's the Bible and the local church. Interestingly, that's what Jesus told us to do and how He told us to do it in Matthew 18.



Why would God allow the potential for such ambiguity in His Church?

Maybe ask Him, but not before reading and meditating on 1 Cor 11:17-19, Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, and the fact that you've admitted here that there exists plenty of ambiguity within the Roman communion.
So I don't know what you're getting at.


If I leave the Church, where do I go?

You're more than welcome at my Baptist church.



Why does the local Baptist church have greater legitimacy than the local Anglican church? 

You're asking one question and implying another, so I'll answer both.
First, the Baptist church has more b/c its teaching is more in agreement with the Scripture.
Second, to say the Baptist church has more is not at all to say that it solely has legitimacy and the Anglican ch doesn't have any. If the local Anglican ch gets it mostly right and gets a few small matters wrong, it's acceptable. It's not all or nothing.



If they are equally legitimate, why do denominations exist at all?

There are many answers to this, and I'm sure you could do some reading in history to find out.
As far as why I persist in my denomination and don't decry their continued existence, tell me what's wrong with them first. Don't appeal to some ambiguous abstract "disunity"; tell me concretely what the problem is.
I am credobaptist. My brother John Bugay is pædobaptist. I think he's wrong in that view, but that's as far as I'm concerned a tertiary doctrine. I don't want to baptise my kids and so I am Baptist, but I wouldn't have any problem worshiping at his local ch if there weren't a decent credobap local ch that were accessible to me. We have unity in the principal things, and that's what matters.



Catholics have many opinions on many things, but the major issues (those relevant to salvation) are set in stone by twenty centuries of consistent teaching.

1) Sola Scripturists have many opinions on many things, but the major issues (those relevant to salvation) are set in stone by twenty centuries of consistent teaching.
2) The claim to "twenty centuries of consistent teaching" is only possible to make when you grossly cherry-pick teachings NOW, identify the ones you chose as "these are our Sacred Tradition, and those other parts aren't" NOW, and then look back and say "See? Consistent!"
That's hardly impressive. Anyone can cherry-pick.
Far better to choose a view like Sola Scripura wherein we recognise that the church throughout time has been variable, unstable at times, and full of disagreements. All things are to be judged by Scripture. Simple.
1/19/2012 12:55 PM 

Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

On the other hand, Protestants rage over matters big and small, issues irrelevant and relevant to salvation

So do Roman Catholics.
The ones that you disagree sufficiently with you'll simply write out of the Roman communion, but you don't have any authority to do that; only the Magisterium does, and the Mag doesn't do a whole lot of excommunicating and defining some really important doctrines infallibly.
So don't act like you're any better off. You're not.



And these fights are not just between denominations, but within them!

And these fights are not just between RCC and EOxy, but within Rome!



And, going back to the issue of authority, there is simply no genuine way of settling disputes except to beat one another over the head with the Bible.

And, going back to the issue of authority, there is simply no genuine way of settling disputes except to beat one another over the head with arcane Magisterial documents that often contradict each other.
Better to argue about the meaning of an infallible Scripture than about the fallible "clarifications" of evil men.


You simply cannot claim that the Bible is crystal clear. It contradicts reality. 

You simply cannot claim that the Magisterium is crystal clear. It contradicts reality.
See how easy the naked assertion game is? Why don't you give us an argument and show your true colors a little more clearly? Namely, it's clear you're not a big fan of the Bible. You love the RCC more than God's Word. Typical, really, and typically sad.



As I see it, you're just functioning as your own Magisterium. 

So are you; you have to interpret Magisterial pronouncements.
Phillip, do you realise that we've seen and dealt with these objections a thousand times? You're unfortunately not breaking any new ground here. I wonder when online RCs are going to come up with some progression in the debate.




What you're really saying is this: "My reading of the Bible is crystal clear. Some Prots simply choose to deny its plain and straightforward teaching." 

What you're really saying is this: "My reading of the Magisterium is crystal clear. Some Roman Catholics simply choose to deny its plain and straightforward teaching."



If I need to choose between the Magisterium of Rhology and the ancient and venerable Magisterium of Rome

Thank God that's a false dilemma.
Thank God also that I haven't made any statement that would reasonably lead a person to that conclusion.


Peace,
Rhology
1/19/2012 12:55 PM 


Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

The Bible is very dear to me, but so is the Church. I do not think the two can or should be divided or pitted against each other.

Unfortunately, when the church we're talking about is the Roman church, conflict is unavoidable.
If RCC took more pains to make their dogma comport with Scripture, you could easily say what you say here. *I* can say it, talking about my local Baptist ch (for the most part; nobody's perfect), b/c my Baptist ch's doctrine is in line with Scripture.
Rome's is not, and that's perhaps no more clearly seen than when Roman apologists like yourself go to great trouble to deny the BIble's clarity when in fact the Bible claims clarity for itself.


I concede that a Catholic must "interpret" Magisterial teaching

Thus by your own yardstick, every RC is a Magisterium of one.
Or you could withdraw that silly "Magisterium of one" argument.



I do not think such teachings are nearly as complex or ambiguous as you make them seem. Most dissenting Catholics embrace heterodoxy out of willfulness, not confusion.

And aNOTHER double standard from you.
I do not think biblical teachings are nearly as complex or ambiguous as you make them seem. Most dissenting "Protestants" embrace heterodoxy out of willfulness, not confusion.



the Catholic system...while imperfect, is (a) Scripturally sanctioned 

You haven't really argued that, at least not in this combox.




preferable to the typical Protestant situation, which is doctrinal anarchy of a million miniature magisteriums.

And you've just conceded a few sentences ago that this argument is untenable.
What else you got?




I have already admitted that I am uncertain about papal infallibility

Wait, I thought RCism was preferable to the typical Protestant situation, which is doctrinal anarchy of a million miniature magisteriums. And now you're telling me you're embracing heterodoxy out of willfulness, not confusion?




thus I also entertain doubts about the exact nature of the Magisterium

It's clear that the Magisterium is your final authority, and you don't know what it is?
That's one seriously messed up worldview, my friend.


I know a number of people who have gone to Rome to settle all manner of contested issues.

I've got a very long list of some other issues the Magisterium could settle but never does.


Protestantism is, to my eye, guilty of countless mistakes and errors. 

So is Rome, and far worse actually. Nobody's claiming any church is perfect. The question is: Which one has it right?
1/20/2012 8:48 AM 

Blogger RHOLOGY SAID:

Where can I go to receive the Body and Blood of Christ?

Since Christ meant that we eat and drink His body and blood by believing in HIm and coming to Him in John 6, Rome is one place where you CAN'T go for that.
Like I said, my church is always available to you.



? What other congregation shows proper reverence to the God-bearer, the very vessel that carried the Word of God? 

Baptists (and Presbys) do. We show her PROPER reverence.
Rome, however, shows her undue and blasphemous reverence to her by elevating her at times above Jesus Himself and praying to her.



If that's what you think Catholicism comes down to, go spend a weekend at some lovely little rustic abbey chanting the liturgy of the hours with monks who have given their hearts, bodies, and minds fully to the Trinity.

It'd probably be easier (and more representative of practical RCism) to find a lovely little rustic abbey chanting the liturgy of the hours with monks who have given their hearts, bodies, and minds fully to Mary, Co-Redemptrix and Queen of Heaven, our savior from Jesus.




You are clearly more familiar with these apologetical debates than I am. I applaud your skill and erudition. Thank you for humoring me. This is not my turf. You have given me much to consider. Thank you again. God bless.

And thanks for coming by.
I encourage you to seek out answers to the challenges we've laid down here. I believe you'll find, if you search honestly and with a repentant heart, that these challenges have no answer in Rome, that you must come home to a church that loves and honors God's Word above its human reflection and puts its full faith in Christ alone to save.
1/20/2012 8:48 AM