Continuing with DavidW, icons, and EOx' question-begging authority claims

In answer to this comment from DavidW and the one after it:

If someone is departing from the Apostolic Faith, thereby becoming a heretic, why should we accept his teachings?

B/c saying "he's departing from the Ap Faith" is circular.  Who decided that?  The same Church that then looks back on what it has identified as "Ap Faith" to derive its authority to look back and identify that which is "Ap Faith"?
Or shall we test everythg by what we know that God has revealed - the Scripture?
That's why I'd hate to be in your position.


Why should we accept the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Ebionites, the Arians, etc?

*I* would say it's b/c their doctrine doesn't match the Scr.
Give me a non-circular way, under your position, to know why not.


the false teachers are always exposed and expelled.

Yup, but maybe you were expelled from the true Church.
Give me a non-circular way, under your position, to know why not.


I certainly can define my canon of Scripture and my canon of Tradition.

Give me the list.  Let me know also how you know it's authoritative.
If you can do neither, you've got nothing.  "By all, everywhere, at all times" is useless - be specific.  Or else y'all can quit badgering me about a specific Canon too.  I'll just respond the same way - "By all, everywhere, at all times", and that statement means whatever I want it to mean, whenever I want it to mean it.


The fact that you've gotten salvation totally wrong and add works to it.
Then you must expunge the Epistle of St. James from your New Testament immediately.

Fail.


The fact that you think it's OK to worship pictures.
Come on, now -- you know that this is a strawman.

What precisely sets your practice apart from worship of those images?
Let's look at it with an analogy.  Two men strike their wives with the exact same level of force.  The one did so b/c he was angry and wanted her to be hurt and to shut up.  The other didn't mean to hurt her at all, meant it as a joke but had a bad sense of humor.  Is the latter action commendable b/c his motivation was not to hurt?


To reject images is, in the end, to adopt a docetic christology.

Please prove it.  You say that all the time.  Make it its own post, I want to see your argument.


Now, you ask Jnorm how you can test our Faith: test it off the Faith of the early Church.

1) Early writers disagreed about certain things and you don't accept just ANYthing an early writer said.
2) Nor do you accept every writer.
3) Nor can you prove, apparently, that these early church writers represented the beliefs of the early church laity, though I keep asking you for the proof.
So, will you engage those challenges, or will you keep repeating yourself?


I challenge you to find any way in which we've departed from the Faith held by the earliest Christians.

I've found multiple ways in which you beg the question on this tendentious characterisation.
I have also shown you before numerous things that early church writers (even "F"athers) have written that contradict your position.  You choose simply to ignore them, but that's not my fault.


Our God would not abandon his people to heresy and idolatry for 1600+ years.

1) How do you know that?
2) How do you know He DID abandon His church, given my position?
3) How valid would that objection be during Elijah's time?



They were not Reformed Baptists in any sense; they were Orthodox.

Actually, they were who they were, nothing else.  But I get to properly represent them b/c what they blvd holds very little importance for a Sola Scripturist, in terms of authority and backup for what I believe.


1. Consuming the Eucharist is an act of worshiping Christ through an "image" of Him -- or a symbol, in your belief. Would it be okay to kiss the chalice/cup containing the Eucharist as a way to honor it as well as to consume it?

1) The Scr knows nothing of this practice.  Jesus never mentioned anythg close.  So there's certainly no obligation to.
2) Which demands that one ask the question - why would one do that?
Same for questions #2 and 3.


4. You seem to think that the Orthodox Church invented its Apostolic Succession and picked and chose amongst ancient authors at some relatively recent date. Can you give a round number at least for when this happened?

1) If you can give an approx date and location for the remnant that God preserved for Himself in 1 and 2 Kings.
2) It's not that "I seem to think" it.  I've proven it numerous times, that you choose among what early writers blvd and ignore other parts b/c "those things that they wrote didn't line up with Apostolic Faith".  This is not up for question, it is clear and evident.


5. Do you ever prostrate yourself in prayer at all?

Yes.  To God.


6. Are all forms of prostration acts of worship?

No.  You're committing the same error that all those EOx at Perry's blog are.
You tell me that it’s OK to do all of the above:
1) Kiss their image. While they’re not there.
2) Burn incense and light candles to their image. While they’re not there.
3) Set up that image in church. You know, the place where religious activity frequently takes place. While they’re not there.
4) Pray inaudibly to them and expect them to read your thoughts and carry the prayer to God. While they’re not there. And you can’t say it audibly to their ears since the dead don’t hear with their physical ears.

Why divorce the one action (bowing down) when it’s never alone in real practice? Unless you were trying to hide something or commit the fallacy of division?


7. Did Christ redeem the material world when he assumed material flesh?

1) Please be more specific, specifically with reference to "redeem" and "the material world".
2) Please also give us a reason to think this is relevant to bowing down and talking inaudibly, asking religious, pious requests and favors and grace, from pictures of dead people.



8. Do you really think that the earliest Christians were like the Reformed Baptists in their beliefs and practices?

I don't know how many times I have to tell you that they were who they were, neither modern EOx nor modern Reformed Baptists.  I suggest you check your attitude - when someone has to explain his position over and over again and you keep going back to the same questions, that says something about you.