Thursday, May 26, 2011

Bill Maher, Osama bin Laden, church and state, part 3

Continuing from last time, the rest of the dialogue up to this point.


Angela:

Did Jesus rejoice when peter cut off the ear of Jesus' enemy in John 18? Arent Christians supposed to be modeling themselves after his behavior?

The reason I mentioned Iran was to again point out to you as a side note that not all Muslims are Arab. When you refer to the "Arab Muslim world" It doesn't include Iran, they are Persian, not Arab. I wasn't arguing about what they are or are not ruled by. Your summary of Islam's take on democracy is also a stereotype and inaccurate and I am certain that the people fighting for democracy right now in any number of Muslim countries would debate that with you. But you don't really seem like the kind of fellow who is up for debate.

I have talked about these issues with many people, I've gone to listen to Muslim Scholars speak on the subject. How does visiting a Muslim country and speaking with them not include myself in listening to a diverse group of opinions from Muslims? I would argue that you are the one that isn't acknowledging the diversity of the Muslim community. Again in 1.5 BILLION Muslims in the world you will most certainly find diversity. I haven't argued that all Muslims are peace loving people, my point was that your generalization of most or even many (whatever that word means) is inaccurate. I am glad you are finally conceding that because the people you are talking about are actually part of a small minority of very loud people, OBL was the leader of them.

Oh wow thanks for exposing me to your "diverse" opinion that the majority of ignorant Americans hold. I've nevvvver heard these arguments before. Actually in truth I've heard them so many times that I am practically yawning while I type. The more accurate description is that I am again being exposed to someone so stubborn and determined to be "right" that he has hardened his heart and is clouding his vision with so much hate that he can't see the truth.

The fact that you are walking into a Mosque thinking that people are lying to you speaks volumes about your delusional paranoia about Muslims. The truth is that the verse you are speaking about tells Muslims they may lie if their life is threatened, and that really only refers to telling someone if they are Muslim or not.

There are many many violent verses in the Bible. Verses that we choose to ignore. The Qur'an states what is allowable if Muslims are under threat. At the time the Qur'an was written they were under attack very often. It needs to be taken into context. This is the problem with dogma is that some interpret it in the same context that it was written in back in those times. It really isnt meant to be applied that way today. You can apply the same ideas to the Bible. It doesn't sound like your bias would allow anything close to a "fair reading".

I dont buy your "chronological order" bit. A lot of Muslims aren't even clear on the chronological order or the Qur'an and they have been studying it for years.

I also don't buy that you know Islam better than scholars who have devoted their life to studying it. Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about, but you would love to think you do. It sounds like you are even ignorant to the teachings of your own religion let alone the teachings of one you don't even follow and have a considerable bias against.

Also I am not an scholar of Islam so I won't be getting into the "doctrine of abrogation" or any other doctrines, nor the chronological order of the Qur'an. Seeing as their are scholars of the religion who aren't even completely clear on this matter. Your arrogance has clearly clouded your vision to make you believe you are more educated on these matters than you really are. That doesn't surprise me though, usually ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand.

I am not claiming to know all about the intricacies of Islam, these issues are still out for debate even among Muslim scholars... but just to expose your ignorant broad generalizations of the people of an entire religion and culture that you aren't even that familiar with.

And actually you are claiming to know their religion better than they do if you are claiming that the Taliban's interpretation of Islam is more accurate than that of a peace loving Muslim. That is some of the most arrogant condescending comments I've ever seen. You should be proud of yourself.

I've already heard the guilt by association game people like to accuse CAIR of a million times. It is so tired. A federal judge has already taken them off whatever list they were put on by GWB and found them guilty of nothing. People love to hate CAIR because they defend the rights of Muslims and that's about it. The judge acknowledged that the accusations of them being linked to Hamas was McCarthyism and guilt by association.

There is ZERO risk. Our constitution is written in such a way that entirely prevents any legislation based on religion to ever get through. Your paranoid fantasies just simply aren't true, if they were we would be at risk of being under canon law and jewish law and any other number of religious laws. You just sound paranoid and silly. It will never happen, especially when it is just a tiny minority of nutjobs trying to make it happen. We are more in danger of the Christian taliban located in the tea party of taking away our rights than we are of Muslims trying to.

Willful ignorance in action? Take a look in the mirror my friend. I am not the one hunting for information on biased conspiracy websites and claiming it is truth. Offer me something scholarly and I might take you seriously. Otherwise you just sound like a nutcase honestly. Just the fact that you are still trying to get me to read information off of xenophobic websites speaks volumes.

John Walker Lindh is not an organized effort to overthrow America. Get real. A few crazies does not an "organized network" make.

Yes but you are accusing "most" every Muslim of wanting America destroyed, which would make every Muslim not American. Glad you are the authority on that. Sickening.

"And the Bible ***also*** mentions rejoicing to some extent in the death of enemies of the faith. It's BOTH. "
I don't seem to recall Jesus doing both.

A naked assertian of some white girl that claims to have a muslim boyfriend????? seriously? you are pathetic. You want me to show evidence???? soooooo pathetic. Well here you go (then links me to who I guess is her boyfriend's Facebook page).
I bet you feel pretty proud of yourself

Btw you are so stubborn it's obvious that no matter what I said or what Jesus even said to you, you wouldn't believe it. So it's therefore a waste of my time and I won't be engaging you anymore. Good luck in life with the hardened heart you have, must make it life tough. Maybe someday me and my "Muslim boyfriend" can take an Islam class with you.



Rhology:

hi Angela,

Hope you had a good weekend. Thanks for your patience as I couldn't get to this before now.

--"Did Jesus rejoice when peter cut off the ear of Jesus' enemy in John 18? Arent Christians supposed to be modeling themselves after his behavior? "

No, Jesus didn't rejoice.
Peter is, however, not the government. That matters.

--"not all Muslims are Arab"

Yes, I'm well aware of that.

--". Your summary of Islam's take on democracy is also a stereotype and inaccurate"

How?

--" But you don't really seem like the kind of fellow who is up for debate. "

That's funny, I thought we were debating right here.

--" I would argue that you are the one that isn't acknowledging the diversity of the Muslim community. "

Or maybe I've been discussing Islam as a religion, as a system of belief, rather than only discussing what this and that person believes.
The official position of a given system is not always the same as what most of its professing adherents believe.

--"I haven't argued that all Muslims are peace loving people"

Good.
And neither have I argued that all Muslims are bloodthirsty jihadis.

--"I am glad you are finally conceding that because the people you are talking about are actually part of a small minority of very loud people, OBL was the leader of them"

Yes, a "small minority" of 1.5 billion people!
And who are willing to live consistently with the teaching of the Qur'an. That's sufficiently concerning for me to bring up from time to time.

--"The fact that you are walking into a Mosque thinking that people are lying to you speaks volumes about your delusional paranoia about Muslims."

Qur’an 2:225 Allah will not hold you responsible for your mere utterance in an oath, but he will hold you responsible for that which your hearts gained (what your heart meant). And Allah is forgiving and forbearing.
According to one of Mohammad’s daughters, Umm Kalthoum, he told her that it is okay to lie in three cases: 1) A man with his wife that she will be pleased with him. 2) or at a time of war because war is deception. 3) or to make peace between people.

Wow, that's so funny! Actual exegesis of Islamic teaching!
As opposed to what you've been giving here - your opinion based on interactions with some modern Muslims. Congratulations and all that, but like I said, the teaching of the actual religion is pretty important.

--"There are many many violent verses in the Bible."

Your ignorance of the Bible is very, very striking.
The Qur'an PREscribes violence, whereas the Bible RECORDS, DEscribes it. It's very different.

--" Verses that we choose to ignore. "

Well, verses whose context you've apparently ignored. I don't ignore them, not at all. It's just that I know what they mean.

--"I dont buy your "chronological order" bit. A lot of Muslims aren't even clear on the chronological order or the Qur'an and they have been studying it for years. "

Then the doctrine of abrogation is completely incoherent. You need to rethink.
The translator of the Qur'an I read certainly thought he knew. W/o a good reason to think otherwise, I figure he knows better than you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Qur%27an_(Hilali-Khan)

Also, since you later said "Also I am not an scholar of Islam so I won't be getting into the 'doctrine of abrogation' or any other doctrines", how seriously should any reasonable person take this? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about, so your opinion is eminently dismissable.

--"I also don't buy that you know Islam better than scholars who have devoted their life to studying it. "

You mean like Muhsin Khan?
What you need to realise, and thus escape your naivete, is that "scholars" disagree on virtually everything. Playing scholar-pong gets no one anywhere a great deal of the time. There's at least a plausible reason why some of these scholars are unwilling to accept the violent Qur'anic teachings, just like numerous Biblical "scholars" neglect the passages in the Bible that make them uncomfy. It's b/c there's an agenda, and missing it for the sake of politically correct willful naivete (that would be you) is hardly commendable.

--" It sounds like you are even ignorant to the teachings of your own religion"

That's rich, from someone who didn't even know how to classify the violent passages of the Bible.
But OK, educate me - what am I ignorant about in biblical Christianity?

--"There is ZERO risk."

Except for the evidence I gave you. Your unwillingness to look at facts when they're right in front of you is astonishing.
Some risk, even if small, =/= zero.

--"John Walker Lindh is not an organized effort to overthrow America."

now you're moving the goalposts. That wasn't the original contention. Do try to pay attention.

--"Yes but you are accusing "most" every Muslim of wanting America destroyed"

Quote me.

--"And the Bible ***also*** mentions rejoicing to some extent in the death of enemies of the faith. It's BOTH. "
"I don't seem to recall Jesus doing both."

OK. And?

--" You want me to show evidence???? soooooo pathetic. Well here you go. "

And? How does this lend credibility to your claims?

--"Btw you are so stubborn it's obvious that no matter what I said or what Jesus even said to you,"

Believe me, the feeling is mutual, but the difference is that I can actually make sound arguments and you're having a great deal of difficulty in that area. You're good at emoting, though.

--"Good luck in life with the hardened heart you have"

How do you identify a hardened heart? What is the surrounding spiritual context of that?

1 comment:

Matthew C. Martellus said...

Playing scholar-pong gets no one anywhere a great deal of the time.

I think you might be on to something here...the next great game for bored academics...Scholar-pong! The idea would be to pick a pretty obvious proposition in some field of study, and try to find as many scholars as possible that deny the proposition. Whoever produces the biggest morass of inconsistent scholarly opinions wins.

I'm not sure I'd want to play, but I think the results could be quite entertaining...