Thursday, March 08, 2012

When your idol is socialised healthcare

From here:

NOTHING LIKE PRO-CHOICE SEMANTICS!!!!......."Pamela, the problem with your point about pro-choicers can adopt too is that, pro-choicers aren't advocating for more unwanted children to be born. I often see the word "Advocate" attached to pro-choicers, which isn't really the case. We don't "Advocate" for adoptions or abortions, the only thing we advocate for is the right to make a choice."

So clearly Chris Fallon has exposed the reality that "choicers" only support "choice" in theory not in action. According to him once birth/and or adoption is "chosen" they wash their hands of the mothers and their babies born of those "choices" they say they support. He says they only support MAKING THE CHOICE not the results of the choices they support.
 ·  · 2 hours ago

  • 2 people like this.

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do And do you support free health care to children, nursing mothers, and pregnant women?

    • Angie Pasikowski Hanks Why even support anything then when they are not really helping? If it's just the choice they are concerned with then maybe they should pay more attention to the fact that abortion kills babies and care about educating people of the true facts so they make the RIGHT choice.
      about an hour ago ·  ·  2

    • Abolish Human Abortion By "free" do you mean "that taxpayers pay for thru being forced to pay high taxes to a bloated government that wastes most of its tax revenues"?
      about an hour ago ·  ·  3

    • Pamela Engle Are you saying it's only the governments responsibility idiotic and not yours as a choicer? You're all for big government?

    • Marron Price But an informed, educated choice is not welcome, don't you know. If these women were allowed an inform, educated choice the numbers of abortion would drop. A lot. Less abortions means less blood money in the pockets of PP and other 'clinics'.

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do Angie, free health care to pregnant women, nursing women, and children, has been proven to both reduce the amount of abortions and make the child and mother both healthier.
      And if either of you really did care about those children you would care that they recieve good medical care from conception.


    • Abolish Human Abortion By "free" do you mean "that taxpayers pay for thru being forced to pay high taxes to a bloated government that wastes most of its tax revenues"?
      about an hour ago ·  ·  1

    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--"if either of you really did care about those children you would care that they recieve good medical care from conception."--

      Maybe that's far beyond our capabilities and we have to trust God on that. What's your argument to back up your contrived obligation you wish to impose on us?


    • Marron Price Who says we don't? Where ever did you get that?

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do My argument is that socialized medicine has been proven to reduce abortions because the mother does not need to worry about paying for medical care, it makes for a healthier pregnancy, it lessens the maternal death rate, children are healthier, and their mothers are healthier. Would you not want the children to be healthier?
      Look at all the first world nations and ask yourself why the US has more children borne with birth defects, why the US has more abortions as opposed to other first world countries where abortion is legal and there is socialized medicine, why the US has more women dying from pregnancy related complication, why the US has a higher infant mortality rate, etc. Why?
      If you want a woman to keep an unwanted pregnancy as opposed to aborting it make it as easy as possible and as less financially burdening as possible.


    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--"My argument is that socialized medicine has been proven to reduce abortions because the mother does not need to worry about paying for medical care"--

      It's just that it wrecks the economy and reduces everyone to a medium low icky standard of living. Yeah, great.
      Makes it so no one has any disposable income for stuff like computers and charitable donations.
      And we all get to stand in line for bread, and meat once a month. Joy. Except for the oligarchy, of which Idiotic is no doubt a member.

      --"why the US has more children borne with birth defects"--

      Prolly lots of reasons. Doubt it's ONLY because the US doesn't have socialised medicine. You need an argument.


    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--" why the US has more abortions as opposed to other first world countries where abortion is legal and there is socialized medicine"--

      Prolly lots of reasons. Doubt it's ONLY because the US doesn't have socialised medicine. You need an argument.


    • Abolish Human Abortion ANSWER THE QUESTION: By "free" do you mean "that taxpayers pay for thru being forced to pay high taxes to a bloated government that wastes most of its tax revenues"?
      59 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do Name ONE country where socialized medicine has ruined a country. ONE. And it has to be proven that socialized medicine is the main cause

    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--"And it has to be proven that socialized medicine is the main cause"--

      First you need to give us a reason to think you've made a proper connection between the claims you've made above and socialised medicine. Good luck. It's pretty complex, which is why I refrain from making specific claims like you have.

      57 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Marron Price Speaking for myself, I have no problem handing over my money to help with the health and wellfare of women and children, but I do have a problem with paying for women to kill their children. I will not pay for that, nor will I pay for their sex lives. They can buy their own pills and condoms.
      55 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Pamela Engle Where do you get that socialized medicine is "FREE"? Please enlighten me!
      55 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Marron Price It is most definitely not free, and is only for those deemed worthy.
      52 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Abolish Human Abortion It's free if you're in the ruling class, the Communist Party. La noblesse.
      51 minutes ago ·  ·  2

    • Pamela Engle Yes that's why congress would not open their insurance plan with others. ELITISTS
      50 minutes ago ·  ·  2

    • Marron Price The system we have today, tho not perfect, is still far better and reaches(helps) more people them socialized medicine ever would.
      48 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion If the country had more Christians in it, it would be far better, as more people would contribute far more to charitable causes, and those causes would be less corrupt overall, less wasteful.
      47 minutes ago ·  ·  2

    • Marron Price Amen to that.
      46 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do 
      http://apps.who.int/ghodata/?vid=710 under Mortality and Burden of Disease you will find the category for Life Expectancy, and under that Life Expectancy, click that for life expectancy data. For maternal death rates click on Equity and under Women and Health you will find the Maternal Mortality Ratio. Also under Equity you will find Urban Health, click that, go down to Health Outcomes and then click on Infant Mortality for the infant mortality data.
      So there, you have the life expectancy data, the maternal death data, and the infant mortality rate.


      apps.who.int
      The World Health Organization

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do And the USSR was not felled by socialized medicine.

    • Abolish Human Abortion It wasn't felled by any one cause, so your question was a bad one. So, my question, please?
      43 minutes ago · 

    • Pamela Engle Again, how is socialized medicine FREE?
      41 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do I answered it with data from the WHO. I even gave you detailed step by step instructions on how to find the various data on the site.

    • Abolish Human Abortion By "free" do you mean "that taxpayers pay for thru being forced to pay high taxes to a bloated government that wastes most of its tax revenues"?
      39 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion Also, you didn't make the connections I requested. YOu merely proved that the stats are as you stated them. I didn't object to the stats, so...
      38 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do You do not have to pay for it upfront but by paying taxes. Thus you do not have to pay to see a doctor, or a specialist, or for a medical procedure from your own pocket.

    • Abolish Human Abortion So it's not free.
      So your answer to my question is: Yes.
      Right?

      37 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Abolish Human Abortion And yes, you DO have to pay from your own pocket. Taxes come out of your pocket.

      Socialism makes you stupid. Wow. Did you go to government school?

      37 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do If you look at the data country by country (I am sure you are intelligent enough to do so), you would see countries that have socialized medicine have a lower infant mortality rate, a lower rate of maternal deaths, and a higher life expectancy.

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do And yes I did. But considering I have the ability to interpret data and you do not... well...

    • Abolish Human Abortion If I "cannot" pay taxes, it's not free, is it? OTHER PEOPLE pay for it instead. Right?
      33 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--"you would see countries that have socialized medicine have a lower infant mortality rate, a lower rate of maternal deaths, and a higher life expectancy."--

      And your argument that you're not affirming the consequent is...?

      33 minutes ago · 

    • Pamela Engle And does that FREE service get paid for by money picked off of trees? How are those services paid for?
      32 minutes ago ·  ·  1

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do 
      Through a progressive tax system and by government transfers to the provinces. And no, there are no death panels.
      I am saying the consequence of socialized medicine is a healthier population which includes healthier children.
      If you care soo much about creating government regulation to keep them 'safe' in the womb then why not create a government health care system for those same children when they are borne? Or are you just for government intervention when the fetus is in the uterus?


    • Abolish Human Abortion They're paid for by the great unwashed masses, so that you work and get very little return for it. La noblesse gets a lot of the good stuff, and those who don't work get the same as you, the worker, get.
      24 minutes ago ·  ·  1


    • Abolish Human Abortion A lot of waiting in line for bread.
      22 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do I live in Canada and I do not see long lines anywhere for bread

    • Pamela Engle Progressive tax is money that comes from where?
      22 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion Idiotic is really really hoping we all only look at highly industrialised and sparsely populated countries like Sweden for her idealistic exemplars and not the USSR (much more comparable to the USA) or Vietnam. I wonder why that is...
      21 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion Canada doesn't have any people in it. The USA has about 10X as many people and 10X as many illegal immigrants if not more.
      21 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do But I do see mothers not having to worry about health care for their premature babies. I see cancer patents not having to worry about affording their chemo. I see pregnant women who don't have to worry about paying for doctors appointments and for tests...

    • Abolish Human Abortion Good for you. I bet we all wish we could live in Canada. Of course, if we did, it WOULD have long lines.
      20 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do Russia (the USSR no longer exists) and Vietnam are not first world countries.
      And Pamela, a progressive tax system is where people pay taxes based on the percentage of income they make. And if you fall below a certain line you do not have to pay taxes.


    • Abolish Human Abortion The others pay them for you. Don't worry, you don't have to work. Let Big Brother State take care of you.
      17 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do Again. If you are all for government regulation protecting fetuses in wombs, are you not for protecting the health of that same fetus when it is borne?

    • Abolish Human Abortion Alright, it's clear Idiotic is a fall-in-line socialist, goose-stepping with the rest. She'd rather make you pay for other people at the point of a bayonet (while she of course enjoys fine beluga caviar and vodka) than ask you to help others out of your love for God.
      No different than the yahoos that produced 0bama. I'm out.

      16 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion ‎--" are you not for protecting the health of that same fetus when it is borne?"--

      You mean the LIFE? Yes, that's why I support NOT repealing murder laws. What a ridiculous question.

      15 minutes ago · 

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do And you are no different than the rest of the idiots who stand by and let someone die because they can not afford healthcare. Some pro-lifer you are.

    • Idiotic Things Republicans and Conservatives Say and/or Do And I know I will get banned for this. But I do not care because this conversation along with some others are already saved onto my computer...
      You are a fucking twat Rhology. And I hope someday a child of yours is a homosexual, and I hope that someday you find yourself sick and without insurance.


    • Abolish Human Abortion Yep, you're banned. Too bad; while you didn't have very good arguments, on balance they were better than most.

      Nice talking to you.

      8 minutes ago · 

    • Abolish Human Abortion 
      ‎--" let someone die because they can not afford healthcare"--



      ‎--" let someone die because they can not afford healthcare"--

      How do you know how I spend my money and where I give? You don't. Your biased judgmental attitude is unwarranted without more data, which you didn't have the decency to ask for.

      --"But I do not care because this conversation along with some others are already saved onto my computer..."--

      Good. Spread it far and wide.

      --" I hope someday a child of yours is a homosexual"--

      I'd rather my child be homosexual than be murdered in the womb, with my hand signing the dotted line saying "it's OK to kill this one".

      --" I hope that someday you find yourself sick and without insurance."--

      OK. Did you know there are other options than dead on the side of the road and communism? Do you really think that false dilemmas serve your position well? They don't make for very good arguments.

      6 minutes ago · 

    • Pamela Engle 
      Your personal attack is unfounded and based on pure ignorance. Again, where does the tax money that pays for these services come from? Hmmm? Why are you so afraid to answer the question. You have no idea what my stance is. I have a job. I'm...See More

      2 minutes ago · 

    • Pamela Engle Poorly run government programs in no way ensure lower death rates.

I was the Abolish Human Abortion admin on all those comments.

16 comments:

NAL said...

socialized

Rhology said...

lobotomised

I prefer the British spelling in this case. :-)

Anonymous said...

Just as I thought... a lack of substance with an overload of bias.

bossmanham said...

Anonymous,

Not often that a comment describes itself.

trogdor said...

bossmanham,

That was an awesome burn, dude. You totally moded him.

Godsnotdeadyet said...

"Abolish Human Abortion ‎--"My argument is that socialized medicine has been proven to reduce abortions because the mother does not need to worry about paying for medical care"--

It's just that it wrecks the economy and reduces everyone to a medium low icky standard of living. Yeah, great.
Makes it so no one has any disposable income for stuff like computers and charitable donations.
And we all get to stand in line for bread, and meat once a month. Joy. Except for the oligarchy, of which Idiotic is no doubt a member."

So you sidestepped the point, and then claim it doesn't matter if there are less abortions because the economy would fail. Lol, pure. gold.

zilch said...

What Godsnot said. Rho- do you have any evidence for your assertions about socialized medicine "wrecking the economy", forcing people to "stand in line for bread", etc? As you may remember, I live in Austria, which has socialized medicine, and no breadlines, no wrecked economy, and I'll be glad to compare my contributions to charity with yours.

Rhology said...

So you sidestepped the point, and then claim it doesn't matter if there are less abortions because the economy would fail.

This is a great example of unwarranted quoting out of context. I dealt with this question elsewhere in the thread.
Further, making an assertion like what Idiotic made requires not only evidence but also evidence that specifically links the allegedly causative factor to the allegedly caused effect. This Idiotic did not do, and it would be incredibly difficult, because of the massively huge number of factors in play and the limited number of societies to test, not to mention the difficulty of finding a decent control group.

Rhology said...

do you have any evidence for your assertions about socialized medicine "wrecking the economy"

Yes, economics of supply and demand.


forcing people to "stand in line for bread"

USSR, as mentioned above.


, I live in Austria, which has socialized medicine

Since you're apparently unaware of this fact, I'm happy to inform you that other factors can keep otherwise-unstable economic systems afloat for longer than they otherwise would remain in place. Incestuous and future-sacrificing inter-country money-loaning, for example.




I'll be glad to compare my contributions to charity with yours.

Good for you.

zilch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rhology said...

I don't have the energy for it right now. Sorry.

zilch said...

I said: do you have any evidence for your assertions about socialized medicine "wrecking the economy"

rho answered: Yes, economics of supply and demand.

Er, I asked for evidence. Do you know what "evidence" means?

zilch: forcing people to "stand in line for bread"

rho: USSR, as mentioned above.

Can you show how "socialized medicine" caused people to "stand in line for bread" in the USSR? You could also claim that speaking Russian caused people to "stand in line for bread". Let's have some figures.


zilch: I live in Austria, which has socialized medicine

rho: Since you're apparently unaware of this fact, I'm happy to inform you that other factors can keep otherwise-unstable economic systems afloat for longer than they otherwise would remain in place. Incestuous and future-sacrificing inter-country money-loaning, for example.

I'll agree with you there, but such factors apply to all economic systems, including that of the US of A. Can you please stick to your claim that socialized medicine "wrecks the economy"? Give us some facts and figures, please.

zilch said...

Oops, I see that Rho replied to my comment while I was cleaning it up. Rho's last comment thus applies to my post that follows it.

Godsnotdeadyet said...

"This is a great example of unwarranted quoting out of context"

Oh the irony.

Gefdas said...

A couple questions for rhology-

--If worldly goods and material gains don't ultimately matter, why shouldnt we as a society try to provide healthcare to all people?

--Could you please point the readers to where socialized medicine was the specfic cause of 'people standing in line for bread' in the USSR?

--Can you please provide examples of countries that use a system such as Obamacare, that aren't completely socialist, in which a majority of people are standing in line for meat and bread on a daily basis?

Can non-Christians be charitable?

AND here are others, not really related to the topic at hand but relates to your worldview


--Are you aware of the social, cultural and historical factors that has created religion and conceptions of God throughout time?

--Why did you choose the interpretation of the Bible that you choose to believe?

--Is the Bible meant to be taken as literal or should it be read as metaphorical to understanding truth?



Thanks for your time. Thanks for considering the questions too.

I ask because it seems you have a severely misguided view of the way economics work, and the actual ramifications of Obamacare. You also seem to share a narrow-minded view of the hundreds of different factors that cause and relate to topics ranging from religion to the government to history. Either you truly are ignorant of all of the factors involved, in which your "one size fits all" worldview literally cant apply to everyone, or you choose to ignore them to make arguments comply with your worldview.

Again, not trying to be insulting- but reading books about these topics and trying to understand different perspectives are might go a long way with you. I have no doubt that you know the Bible through and through- but I have serious doubts that you have ever tried to look into critical works that show that much more was involved in the evolution of religion. I wouldnt ask these questions usually to someone- but your naivety and simple outlook on the way things are is astounding.

Rhology said...

Gefdas,

-We should. The gov't stealing loads of money from working ppl, wasting most of it, and giving a great deal of the rest of it to ppl without requiring they work for it is not the way to do it.

-I was referring to the larger context of socialISM, not merely socialised medicine. The standing in line for bread thing I set in contrast to the oligarchy's living much larger than the proletariats, and the untenable system that is socialism.

-No, I am not aware of any.

-Yes, non-Christians can be charitable. I don't see the point of this question, however.

-Yes, I am aware of some of them. Surely claiming to know ALL of them would be pretty hubristic.
I don't intend to defend "religion", but the Bible and Jesus' religion, however.
Also, to say that a given religion developed and was affected by various factors is a no-brainer. Who denies that? To say that therefore it is false is to commit the genetic fallacy - this has nothing to do with its truth value.

-If you're asking why I chose it, it is because God regenerated my heart to love His Word.
If you're asking why and how I defend it, it is merely the regular, normal way of dealing with all human communication - the grammatico-historical method. There is not much special about biblical hermeneutics in terms of setting it apart from the hermeneutical method of any other communication.

-it should be taken according to its normal sense, as intended by the authors.


As for your closing emote, thanks for your thoughts. I doubt you can substantiate your accusation of naivete, and I don't care whether my outlook is simple or not; I care whether it is true.