It may look like I'm being really mean and nasty to this Will Duffy, but you have to understand that our relationship started off decently well. He (wrongly) calls himself an abolitionist and all that, likes talking theology, etc. OK, cool. But he is a open theist. So we debated that here and there, but what I've noticed from him and others in his little FB clique is that they do not care enough to learn. This is like the tenth time we've been around this same discussion. It is a waste of time to actually answer his questions again so I started asking him to demonstrate that he actually cares enough to engage with some measure of intellectual honesty. Sadly, it would appear that he does not care enough to do that.
Note that while I am trying to get away from the moniker "Calvinist", it will take some time to root out of my every day vocabulary. When you see me say "Calvinist", just substitute "regenerational monergist".
Will Duffy The Calvinist doctrine of grace is not love at all. It's more like the equivalent of rape.
June 12 at 1:06pm · Like
Rhol Ogy Count on Will Duffy to say stupid things and lies. Like clockwork.
June 12 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
Will Duffy That's not very substantive Rhol. Rape is when a man forces himself on a woman and does not allow her to resist. The Calvinist doctrine of grace is quite similar. God forces Himself on you (arbitrarily I might add) and does not allow you to resist His grace.
Not sure why you think I was lying and not sure why you think what I said was stood, but you're free (at least in my view of God) to refute the argument at hand.
June 12 at 2:11pm · Like
Rhol Ogy God doesn't not allow the person to resist.
And rape is sin. It is wicked. When God saves a person, it is the best thing that could happen to them. He sets them free. You should know better, because you seem smart, but your intellect is clouded by sin, so you end up saying foolish things quite often.
June 12 at 2:12pm · Like
Rhol Ogy As for substantive, hows about you refute my article about open theism sometime, Will? You haven't even tried. So I LOL at your accusation. Pathetic.
http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-god-of-open-theism-cant-know.htmlJune 12 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
Will Duffy //God doesn't not allow the person to resist.//
Really? What is "irresistible grace" then? Once God regenerates a person, can they choose to reject His grace? Yes or No?
June 12 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
Rhol Ogy You speak so confidently like you know Calvinism well; go ahead and answer for me and we'll see how well you do.
June 12 at 2:28pm · Like
Will Duffy That's just a game. I'm not interested in that.
June 12 at 2:29pm · Like
Rhol Ogy I know. You have your pet things, and when someone challenges you for real, this is how you act. Later.
June 12 at 2:34pm · Like
Will Duffy //And rape is sin. It is wicked.//
And this is my opinion of Calvinism. So you can see why I chose the analogy I did.
June 12 at 2:39pm · Like
Rhol Ogy How dare God save people from death who hate Him.
June 12 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
Rhol Ogy I guess Will thinks that sex is equivalent to love. That's just messed up.
June 12 at 2:56pm · Like
Clayton Strang Simply because something God does may look arbitrary to man does not make it so. None of us see God as God sees Himself, and His ways are not our ways.
June 12 at 3:05pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
Will Duffy Clayton, God's grace is arbitrary by Calvinism's own definitions. Calvinism states that God chooses to regenerate men for no reason whatsoever. That's the definition of arbitrary. If you do not think God chooses person A over person B purely arbitrarily, please tell me what person A did differently from person B to have God pick him.
June 12 at 3:10pm · Like
John M Brindley Come on Will Duffy. Ephesians 1 explains in no uncertain terms why it's not arbitrary.
June 12 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like
Will Duffy John, why does God choose person A over person B?
June 12 at 3:16pm · Like
Rhol Ogy \\God's grace is arbitrary by Calvinism's own definitions. \\
False false false. Not by its own definitions. Try again.
See, guys? This is what I mean. The man acts like he knows what he's talking about, but he never brings the goods.
June 12 at 3:18pm · Like · 4
Rhol Ogy \\Calvinism states that God chooses to regenerate men for no reason whatsoever. \\
False false false. Not for no reason whatsoever. You just don't even know anything. You are a complete ignoramus. Stop talking, Will Duffy. You are making yourself look like a fool. Again.
June 12 at 3:19pm · Like · 4
Rhol Ogy \\ If you do not think God chooses person A over person B purely arbitrarily, please tell me what person A did differently from person B to have God pick him.\\
Red herring. It has nothing to do with persons A and B. If you weren't so ignorant, you'd know that and you wouldn't have asked such a lame question.
June 12 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
John M Brindley Romans 9 will provide your answer.
June 12 at 3:20pm · Like
Rhol Ogy Hint: Romans 9 does not say "for no reason". Not anywhere. Not even in the Greek.
June 12 at 3:20pm · Like · 4
Will Duffy Rhol, I'm not exempt from being a fool, being wrong or even being an ignormaus. But one would need to demonstrate that before it's accepted. I'm still waiting for you to show that God's grace can be resisted after regeneration. If it cannot, then my rape analogy was not too far off. If I'm wrong, then show me. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.
June 12 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like
Will Duffy John, I want to pledge to never tell you or anyone else that an entire chapter in the Bible contains the answer to their question. I will give them the answer or show it to them in the chapter. Do you appreciate that?
With that said (and since the consensus is that I'm a moron), what does Romans 9 say is the criteria by which God chooses person A over person B?
June 12 at 3:27pm · Edited · Like
John M Brindley Paul anticipates the objections raised against God's justice. I think it's around v. 18 or 19 and following.
A finite person perceiving God's decree in election to be arbitrary is kind of silly. He works all things together by the council of his will. To think that anything God does is arbitrary is wrong headed in my opinion.
He is God and we aren't.
June 12 at 3:38pm · Like
Rhol Ogy \\ If it cannot, then my rape analogy was not too far off. \\
You are so lost on this question that you don't even know the issues to be discussed. I'm pleading with you to stop talking.
June 12 at 3:38pm · Edited · Like · 1
Will Duffy John, I understand that you do not think God is arbitrary. But you still have not given me the criteria God uses to choose person A over person B. If there is no criteria, then it's arbitrary, by definition.
June 12 at 3:40pm · Like
Rhol Ogy OOORRRRRR God has criteria, and He hasn't revealed them. Much like what was said above.
June 12 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
Will Duffy Rhol, I'm still waiting for you to show that God's grace can be resisted after regeneration.
//OOORRRRRR God has criteria, and He hasn't revealed them. Much like what was said above.//
So you just think He's not arbitrary then? Notice how you've changed your tune. You started out extremely confident that God is not arbitrary and now you're backing off. Now your position is that you think He has criteria, but you can't know for sure.
Since we're only guessing now, can you give just one hypothetical example of what criteria God might use to choose person A over person B?
June 12 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
John M Brindley //But you still have not given me the criteria God uses to choose person A over person B. If there is no criteria, then it's arbitrary, by definition.//
If God has certain criteria yet chooses to withhold it/them from his creation, it doesn't follow that they are arbitrary simply because the creature can't provide the details.
We are talking about the purposes of God not uncle Billy Joe Jim Bob.
I hold my position on soteriology based on what scripture says.
You are an open theist, right?
June 12 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
Will Duffy John, I'm confused. You were so certain that God was not arbitrary and you even said Romans 9 has the answer to what God's criteria is. But now you're saying we don't know. How can you say God is not arbitrary if you do not know? In fairness, can you at least give a hypothetical example of some criteria God would use to choose person A over person B?
June 12 at 4:42pm · Like
John M Brindley I don't think your confused, I think you just want to argue.
Here is what Paul writes:
"he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."
If uniting all things in Christ for his own glory isn't enough for you to rest in the mystery of election, I can't help you.
June 12 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
Rhol Ogy \\So you just think He's not arbitrary then? Notice how you've changed your tune. You started out extremely confident that God is not arbitrary and now you're backing off. \\
Huh? You're still saying nonsense.
\\can you give just one hypothetical example of what criteria God might use to choose person A over person B?\\
\\You were so certain that God was not arbitrary and you even said Romans 9 has the answer to what God's criteria is. But now you're saying we don't know. \\
Have you ever read Romans 9? Sheesh.
June 12 at 5:11pm · Like
Will Duffy Rhol, how does "His glory" help Him to decide to regenerate person A over person B? Are you saying God cannot be glorified in regenerating person B?
June 12 at 5:28pm · Like
Will Duffy John, I'm just asking simple questions that Calvinists have never answered for me. Why does God look down on person A and decide to generate him, as opposed to person B? If we don't know, then we cannot say with confidence that God is not arbitrary. We can assume He is not arbitrary (which is what you're doing), but we have no logical or reasonable foundation upon which to make such a claim.
June 12 at 5:32pm · Like · 2
John M Brindley The scriptures don't lead anyone to believe that God is arbitrary in any of his decisions. The reformed position on election doesn't claim that he is arbitrary. There is no burden of proof to provide.
Did you say you were an open theist or not?
June 12 at 6:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
Will Duffy John, I agree that the scriptures do not lead anyone to believe God is arbitrary. But unfortunately Calvinist doctrine leads any rational thinker to believe that God is indeed arbitrary. When they say that there is absolutely no criteria for whether or...See More
June 12 at 6:39pm · Like
Rhol Ogy \\how does "His glory" help Him to decide to regenerate person A over person B?\\
No idea. I just know it does. Because the Bible says so.
\\Are you saying God cannot be glorified in regenerating person B?\\
June 13 at 7:12am · Edited · Like
Rhol Ogy \\But unfortunately Calvinist doctrine leads any rational thinker to believe that God is indeed arbitrary. \\
How would you know? You have demonstrated time and again your vast ignorance on this topic. You're no one to judge.
\\When they say that there is absolutely no criteria for whether or not God chooses someone\\
Nobody says that. Calvinists say the exact opposite.
Ah, the dangers of debating with a fool.
John M Brindley, Duffy is most definitely an open theist, and that's not even the worst heresy to which he subscribes.
June 13 at 7:14am · Like
James Lewis Rhol Ogy, could you elaborate on your statement, "God doesn't not allow the person to resist"? Do you agree with the doctrine of irresistible grace?
June 13 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
Matthew Charles Martellus James Lewis I can't speak directly for Rhol Ogy, but as someone who holds to a version of that doctrine, I would say that God does allow people to resist Him, per Acts 7:51, as an example. But that verse doesn't seem to have regeneration in view (as opposed to refusing to heed God's internal conviction of sin). My understanding of God's grace in regeneration is that it is something that could not be resisted, even if people are opposed to it occurring, because regeneration is a renewal of the heart, the creation of something new (per 2 Cor. 5:17). And God's act of creation cannot be said to be resisted in any meaningful sense of the word. And thus, as it is not a process that can be resisted in any meaningful capacity, it is irresistible. This doesn't mean that men can't (and don't) resist God in the conversion process, as conviction of sin and the call to repent is something that very much can be resisted.
Yesterday at 12:56am · Edited · Like
Matthew Charles Martellus And regarding "irresistible grace," I don't see how anyone in their right mind, who actually understands the ideas in question, could compare God's transformation of a wicked, rebellious, God-hating sinner into a righteous, obedient, God-loving son to the wicked, heinous, act of rape. It is simply ludicrous to liken God's gracious sovereign act of giving someone a new heart so that they love Him and desire to be holy (and thereby freely repent of their sins) to the act of one person sexually assaulting another.
Yesterday at 2:56am · Like · 2
Will Duffy //You have demonstrated time and again your vast ignorance on this topic.//
I'll let the readers decide. If I formatted this discussion nicely, would you post it on your blog?
Yesterday at 9:32am · Like · 1
Will Duffy //My understanding of God's grace in regeneration is that it is something that could not be resisted, even if people are opposed to it occurring,//
Exactly. This is why the rape analogy is fitting. All analogies fail, of course, but rape is something that cannot be resisted, even if the woman is opposed to it occurring.
Love, by its very nature, must be freely given. This point alone refutes Calvinism. Just as a man cannot make a woman love him, God cannot make someone love Him. True love must be freely given. If it is not freely given, then it is no longer love.
Yesterday at 9:36am · Like
Rhol Ogy Yes, I would put it up on my blog, Will Duffy. Gladly.
Yesterday at 1:10pm · Like · 1
Rhol Ogy \\rape is something that cannot be resisted,\\
That's not the part Calvinists object to. When are you going to actually learn something from these interactions?
\\Love, by its very nature, must be freely given. \\
It IS freely given. Once the eyes of the sinful man are opened, he is now free to do the right thing and to love Jesus.
\\Just as a man cannot make a woman love him, God cannot make someone love Him.\\
He doesn't. He regenerates people and then they freely choose to love Him.
Also, I can't help but notice that you keep making these naked assertions about what love is, and even though you have no idea what you're talking about vis a vis monergism, you apparently expect people to accept what you assert without argument or biblical citation.
Yesterday at 1:12pm · Like · 4
Will Duffy //Yes, I would put it up on my blog, Will Duffy. Gladly.//
Awesome, thanks. I'm going to make a prediction though, that once I get it to you, you won't put it up. Time will tell.
//When are you going to actually learn something from these interactions?//
When you finally demonstrate your claim that God's grace can be resisted after regeneration.
//It IS freely given.//
You missed my point. God cannot make someone love Him. It's impossible. God cannot even predestine someone to love Him. If He did, then it's not true love, because true love must be freely given.
//Once the eyes of the sinful man are opened, he is now free to do the right thing and to love Jesus.//
Actually he is not free, he must. Unless you think that a regenerate man can reject and hate God. But that's not true according to Calvinism. It looks like you're stuck.
//He doesn't. He regenerates people and then they freely choose to love Him.//
Having the ability to freely choose to love Him by necessity involves the ability to reject Him. But you don't believe this. Can a regenerate man choose not to love God, not to have faith and to go to hell?
Yesterday at 2:03pm · Like · 1
Rhol Ogy \\I'm going to make a prediction though, that once I get it to you, you won't put it up. \\
\\When you finally demonstrate your claim that God's grace can be resisted after regeneration.\\
You need to explain what that means first.
\\God cannot make someone love Him. It's impossible.\\
1) That's just your assertion.
2) That's not the Calvinist claim. You'd know that if you understood the issues, but you don't so you don't.
\\If He did, then it's not true love, because true love must be freely given.\\
Chapter and verse, please.
\\Actually he is not free, he must.\\
That's not what Calvinists claim. So this is a straw man.
\\Unless you think that a regenerate man can reject and hate God.\\
He WON'T because he has been set free. You know, "having been set free from sin, we have become slaves of righteousness"?
\\It looks like you're stuck.\\
It looks like it to you because you don't understand Calvinism.
\\Having the ability to freely choose to love Him by necessity involves the ability to reject Him.\\
Chapter and verse, please.
\\Can a regenerate man choose not to love God, not to have faith and to go to hell? \\
I don't know. I just know a regenerate man WON'T.