AJ: Yo Matt, before you and your AHAer friends go condemning everyone else view on God, you ought to REALLY examine your own.
Me: We examine it all the time, and pro-abortion people are only too happy to help. We condemn falsehoods and deception, and we hope that your souls will be saved. Repent of your sin and idolatry. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, Him alone, to save you from your sin. Holding to the nonsense of UUism is not worth your soul.
AJ: No doubt you. Examine it a little bit more in depth Rhology. As I look back on my years as a Christian, I find it very refreshing that I am no longer tied to a belief system I did not invent or join because of upbringing.
Me: I didn't join it b/c of upbringing. I joined it b/c Jesus transformed me, brought me to repentance, forgave my sin, and told me to follow Him.
Why don't you follow Jesus?
Angel: Rhology, if Jesus told you to jump off a cliff would you?
Me: Sure. But that of course brings up a couple of questions, specifically how I would know it was Jesus talking.
Since the devil tempted Jesus to do that very thing and Jesus told him that one should not put the Lord to the test, there is every reason to think you have proposed an impossible and therefore empty hypothetical.
How about this, though? If He told me to love UUs so much that I would not pass up an opportunity to be seen as a fool and a crazy person in the eyes of my own culture if I may offer them the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I would obey.
AJ: Simple, Jesus isn't for me. I came from a denomination where Jesus was all it.
When I was still a Christian,
other Christians would usually expect me to show
how a certain belief was based in the Bible. Not a problem usually, I know the Bible backwards and forwards. Now I have developed my own spirituality. I prefer spiritual progress, not digression and stagnation.
Angel: Rhology, You claim Jesus told you to follow him, your own words, how do you know it is not the devil? You claim my sentence is an empty hypothetical, and since yours is just the same then yours must be an empty hypothetical, in which case Jesus did not tell you to follow him but you claim he did ... Kind of crazy of you make all that up no?
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Me: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him. What flaw do you find in Jesus that you don't follow Him?
\\You claim Jesus told you to follow him, your own words, how do you know it is not the devil? \\
Because the devil wouldn't tell me to serve his mortal enemy.
Angel, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
Angel: Rhology, could you be wrong about the devil telling you to follow a made up two dimensional Jesus that does not allow you to grow spiritually?
Angel: Rhology, you are underestimating the devil
AJ: You enjoy looking bavkwards, instead of moving forwards.
Me: Angel, no I cannot be wrong about that. Because Jesus has said it with certainty.
How am I underestimating him? The Bible tells me what he can and can't do. You're just imagining things.
AJ: Most religious affirm one sacred text and other religions was founded by a single person. I prefer neither, as the basic 'truths' of that religion are found in looking back only. Death to spirituity, is found there.
Me: AJ:, how do you know what forward is?
Me: My religion was revealed by God.
AJ: As says the God of the Bible. Of course.
Angel: AJ:, I am getting out of here. It seems Rhology is one of those false prophets who know everything, so not worth my time and words, he even claims to know G**, that is blasphemous at best.
AJ: We welcome new thinking, Rhology. instead of testing any new insights against an established tradition of 'truth'.
AJ: Fundamentalist Christians believe they know everything, Angel. Biblically speaking.
AJ: Forward is whatever does not hold us down or back spiritually or held down rationally. We are free to change to any religion, without changing churches.
I know why you probably prefer to look to One.
Me: \\Fundamentalist Christians believe they know everything, Angel. Biblically speaking.\\
\\Forward is whatever does not hold us down or back spiritually or held down rationally.\\
how do you know what is forward and backward?
\\I know why you probably prefer to look to One.\\
If it rhymes with "He saved me from my sin and wretchedness", then yes, you might indeed know why.
You missed "Biblically speaking"
My way, or the highway.
Faith alone, in Christ alone.
Jesus saves! Repent and believe!
You might disagree on small details, but over all you do think you know everything Biblically.
We use our own rationale, Rhology. Or did you not know that?
AJ: It is just as when you are ill and you are taking medicine. Won’t you be able to feel whether you are getting healthy or not? If you do not feel it, the progression forward, instead of digression, the question arises of whether you are getting well or not, moving forward. You alone can attest to it yourself (as you only need to affirm it to you alone) if you are making progress in any particular area.
Not held down by one belief.
Me: Have your feelings ever deceived you?
AJ: Of course. All have.
I Ieave the results of my beliefs to the existence of my comfort.
Explain to me, how you are comfortable in Fundamentalism.
Me: So if your feelings have deceived you, how do you know you correctly interpreted them when you thought they were telling you you were heading forward?
AJ: Again I Ieave the results of my beliefs to the existence of my comfort.
Like anyone else, feelings can be wrong. At any time they could be interpreted incorrectly.
There is no fixed road. Everyone is on a different path.
Me: How do you know there is no fixed road? That sounds like a fixed statement.
AJ: Everyone believes what they want Rhology.
There is a big difference between a fixed statement and walking a preferred path of life.
Me: \\There is a big difference between a fixed statement and walking a preferred path of life.\\
How do you know this?
Me: Let me ask it this way. Suppose Joe thinks that he is morally obligated to rape and kill five 10 year old girls today, would he be mistaken?
AJ: He would be unmistakably evil.
Me: But he thinks he is doing the right thing. You think he's doing the wrong thing.
How can I, as a third party observer, know which of you is correct?
AJ: I believe God gives us certain morals that are engrained in us. That never leaves. We know right from wrong. He is going against his good conscience.
Whether we follow those already given morals or not, is another thing.
He's chosen his own wicked path.
Me: You believe this? Is it true, or is that just what you believe?
How do you know that Joe isn't fully convinced that Joe's god commands him to rape those girls? How do you know his conscience bothers him? And so what? What does "his conscience bothers him" have to do with moral goodness?
Could you please answer my question about the third party observer?
AJ: Why don't we just talk about Hitler or any other mass murderer?
A third party observer might agree or disagree with the man. You can't really know unless you hold to some absolute moral code. Doesn't mean the third party observer is right either. Morals can only come from God. I do not believe in a wicked God, there's too much good in the world.
Most have a sensitive conscience to murder. Unless they deaden it.
Me: So a third party observer can't know that raping and killing girls is wrong? Do I understand you correctly?
AJ: It they believe morals are subjective, they can't.
Me: OK, thank you.
Is it morally obligatory to pursue true beliefs, and once discovered, to believe them?
AJ: If we wish to be viewed as different then animals. Yes.
If you wish to not be duped by a lie. Yes.
I would call it a moral obligation.
Me: OK so it is a moral obligation.
How can we know the moral truth about anything, since you seem to be telling me that it is not possible to KNOW FOR SURE that even something like raping little girls is objectively wrong?
AJ: We are all on a spiritual journey and I in my walk have not arrived at that absolute truth yet. Every path is individual and personal. The way I think about things could change at anytime.
Me: How do you know you haven't arrived at that absolute truth yet? Is that true?
AJ: It's true Rhology, and it can change at anytime.
Let me ask you something, as a Christian, you think I once believed Christianity was the absolute truth?
Me: I didn't ask for you to give me your blind faith confession. I asked you HOW YOU KNOW you haven't arrived.
I don't know what you once believed. I do know you were never a Christian.
AJ: Put that way, I have no idea I have not reached the top of all I may know. So I will keep pressing forward and learning. Seeing if my mind can be changed and transformed.
Me: But you don't know whether you're pressing forward, or heading backward, do you?
AJ: Try the Puritan confession.
In my mind I'm moving forward.
Me: But do you know for sure that the Puritan confession is 100% correct?
In your mind? Have you ever thought "In my mind I am moving forward" at a given moment, but later realised you were mistaken?
If so, how do you know you're not mistaken now?
AJ: I disagree with the Puritan Confession. It is my former thought process and beliefs.
I could be wrong at any given time. That wouldn't be a shock to me. I currently prefer comfort, over conformity to a system.
Me: If you could be wrong at any given time, and you don't think that Jesus is the only way to the Father and to have forgiveness of sin, shouldn't you repent of your self-centered approach to seeking truth?
You have two options:
1) Repent and follow Jesus Christ.
2) Persist in your worldview, which is literally absurd. And which will lead you straight to Hell after a life of meaninglessness.
AJ: I'm done repenting and the gospel as a whole means nothing to me. I would have claimed to follow Jesus Christ as Lord. I changed my mind about him and Christianity and general. The old ways, are not always the best for everyone.
Me: You have already admitted that you don't know what is best, because you don't know what is better, or even good.
If you were to follow Jesus, you would have answers to these questions. Consistent answers. Answers that are rational, and that don't lead you to saying that you can't say whether raping little girls is objectively morally wrong.
Think about it.
AJ: No, what I said is God gives morals. Not everyone follows those morals. We have our own religious belief and paths ALL THE TIME. Peoples perspective changes, what they think they once knew as truth, can change. Such as I.
I just dont stick to one book anymore.
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Me: Sure you do. When you think about what you want and your autonomous desires, you are opening your sacred book. You are an idolater.
You have already admitted that you don't know what is best, because you don't know what is better, or even good.
AJ: I follow many sources. According to Christianity indeed I am an "idolater", but then we are a lot of things according to that religion of which I refuse to abide by.
I like my standard. Why do you keep holding to something so old and dead?
Christianity is moving out.
Me: You refuse, but you don't actually have a good reason for doing so other than that you feel like it.
You are an idolater because you are doing whatever you want rather than to do what Jesus commands you to do.
AJ: Hopefully you will become enlightened, to more then just John 14:6
Have a good day Rhology.