Wednesday, December 21, 2011

David learns about Jesus

Rhology said...



There are material bodies in heaven?

No. At this time there is A material body, singular, in heaven.


So there’s an actual, human-shaped body named “Jesus” somewhere in heaven?

No. There's an actual being who is 100% God and 100% man named Jesus somewhere in heaven.


It has flesh and blood and a penis?

He has flesh and bones and a penis, yes. Don't know about the blood part.


How does this work?

It is supernatural. I don't know how it works, but God is all-powerful.


Where is this physical body hanging out?

Heaven. Didn't you just ask that?


How is this body kept alive?

Jesus' body is immortal.


What does it eat?

Nothing.


Men die. Human bodies die

What experience do you have with immortal resurrected bodies, such that you can make such confident assertions on the topic?


If the physical body known as Jesus is still alive after 2000 years, then this ain’t a man.

Please let me know how you know this, and why anyone should believe you and not Jesus.

32 comments:

Francis Turretin said...

As a minor technicality, Enoch and Elijah are also bodily in heaven.

Rhology said...

Doh, thanks. Forgot about them.

merkur said...

"There's an actual being who is 100% God and 100% man named Jesus somewhere in heaven."

Breaches the law of the excluded middle, yawn, despite the fact that you claim that God is the grounding for the laws of thought.

zilch said...

Forget it, merkur, there's no rational argument against God. There's none against Russell's Teapot either.

The Reason for the Season: Axial Tilt! Happy Winter Solstice, everyone!

cheers from chilly Vienna, zilch

Francis Turretin said...

Having two natures is like having two cars - it's impossible because of the law of the excluded middle.

Rhology said...

Moving River Sprite Worshiper's (aka David's) comments over here:
we have a universe filled with billions of non-material souls just hanging around in a non-material way, wanting to get a body back. Interesting. Very strange.

Honestly I can understand what you're saying.
I don't know about "filled", though. It seems more probable to me that these souls are in "holding facilities" - Paradise for the believing dead and Hades (an unpleasant place of torment) for the unbelieving dead.


post-resurrection re-animated bodies that strolled around Jerusalem. They were clearly dead, but they got material bodies for their outing. What happened to those bodies?

Yeah, that was a special occasion, though not the only time something like that happened. It's certainly remarkable for its scope, though.
Scripture doesn't tell us what happened to those guys, actually.
Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

So yes, they were dead, then they were resuscitated, not resurrected, however. Their spirits reanimated their bodies, but their bodies were not resurrected or immortalised. I presume they died again, later.
More discussion on it here, here, here, here.


so you’ll get your penis back? What for?

That's a fine question. I don't know. I doubt for sex, though that question is somewhat open, and not for eliminating waste...OTOH God created all things good and I'm sure He has a good reason.



God may have condemned you to eternal torture before you were born.

No, that is not possible, on the Christian worldview.
If you'd like to posit a worldview in which God condemns people who do believe, trust in Him,and have repented of their sins, go for it. Let's see how you do and how well it stands up to scrutiny. Don't forget to include an account of how it's justifiable to worship river sprites.


“Us” and “our” are plural. Refers to a group of individuals. Or many gods.

Or, since there's one God, multiple hypostases/persons. When are you going to actually argue that the Trinity is wrong, rather than just assert it?

Rhology said...

It’s much more likely that this is a remnant of the polytheism from which Judaism developed.

Your evidence that Judaism developed out of polytheism?



There’s nothing in the “context” of Genesis 1 to indicate that elohim means specifically father+son+spirit as a unified entity or ousia or any term from Greek philosophy

True, but that's not what you originally asked me. I wouldn't have answered with Genesis 1 if you were asking whether any verses present Father+Son+Spirit as a unified entity or ousia or any term from Greek philosophy.


Yes, here Yahweh is clearly singular. One god, one person, one entity.

And Who rains fire from Yahweh on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Why didn't it just say "Yahweh rained fire"?


This is the god who remains at the end of the transition from polytheism to monotheism

More naked assertion.



. If you look into the cultural history of Yahweh, we find a god who always acts as a single individual in conflict with other gods like Baal or when destroying towns like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Yes. The Trinity always acts in perfect harmony, such that there is plenty of reason to refer to God's actions as from a singular. Which, in fact, He is. He is one God.



No hints in the OT of one part of Yahweh talking to another part of Yahweh

Nobody is claiming that one "part" of Yahweh talks to another.
Look, you're so inept at this. You have no idea what you're talking about, you show no clue about the background info. It's kind of sad to watch you flounder around.



For example, could you point to the verse in the NT that uses the Greek words for “trinity” or “triune”?

No such verse exists.
Here is a list of verses that teach the Trinity very strongly.
Matt 28:19-20
Luke 10:21
Acts 2:33, 3:21, 4:25, 7:55
Romans 1:2-5
Romans 8:11
Romans 15:15-19, 30
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
2 Cor 13:14
Ephesians 2:18-22
Eph 3:16-19
Eph 5:18-20
Titus 3:4-6
Hebrews 9:14
Revelation 1:9-10


So, 100% man and 100% God adds up like river sprites ar Sodom and Gomorrah worthy of worship? I agree.

I have no idea what this means.

Matthew C. Martellus said...

"There's an actual being who is 100% God and 100% man named Jesus somewhere in heaven."

Breaches the law of the excluded middle, yawn, despite the fact that you claim that God is the grounding for the laws of thought.



This only follows if one accepts a proposition of the following form:

◻(Human(p) ⊃ ¬Divine(p))

But an unargued assertion of such a proposition merely begs the question, as it assumes what the critic needs to prove - that Chistian theology is incoherent, by virtue of the fact that Jesus could not have been both fully God and fully man.

River Sprite Worshiper said...

“Their spirits reanimated their bodies, but their bodies were not resurrected or immortalised. I presume they died again, later.”

Well, I hope they died again later. I don’t like zombies.

Doesn’t resurrection mean the act of rising from the dead or returning to life? If they were reanimated, then they returned to life. They were alive again, yes? They were resurrected.

Pretty remarkable event, wouldn’t you say? Zombies in the streets of Jerusalem. Funny how there’s no record of this event outside of Matthew. Doesn’t seem to have bothered the Romans. But I know that the absence of corroboration of the this extraordinary event is not a problem for you.


“Your evidence that Judaism developed out of polytheism?”

You want a reading list?


“And Who rains fire from Yahweh on Sodom and Gomorrah. Why didn't it just say "Yahweh rained fire"?”

It does say "Yahweh rained fire". Lord is synonymous with Yahweh, a single person god.


“More naked assertion.”

Again, you want a reading list:?


“Yes. The Trinity always acts in perfect harmony, such that there is plenty of reason to refer to God's actions as from a singular. Which, in fact, He is. He is one God.”

Well, if the Trinity always acts in perfect harmony, there’s no evidence here that there is a father+son+spirit trinity, is there? If it’s all “perfect harmony”, then there will be no hint of three “persons”. You can imagine that there are three persons in here if you’d like, but it’s not in the texts. You’re just adding what you want to add.


“Nobody is claiming that one "part" of Yahweh talks to another. “

I didn’t claim that that anyone was claiming this. I was just pointing out that this doesn’t happen in the OT. Clearly, you agree with me.

But then in the NT, we have the different parts of God talking to each other. Interesting change, isn’t it? Or maybe what we actually have in the NT is a human talking to Yahweh, a human that will later be turned into a god by his followers.


“No such verse exists. “

Well, there you have it. A central dogma of Christianity, and the words are never used in the NT. Interesting.


“Or, since there's one God, multiple hypostases/persons. When are you going to actually argue that the Trinity is wrong, rather than just assert it?”

I’ve argued that the Trinity is wrong by pointing out that there are three distinct entities here. You’ve buried the problem by playing word games.

“Look, you're so inept at this. You have no idea what you're talking about, you show no clue about the background info. It's kind of sad to watch you flounder around.”

Oh, I think I understand well enough. You have said that there are three divine “persons”. Even you can’t miss the fact that there separate “persons” here. Even you can see this.

Well, what is a “divine person”? A “divine person” is a god. Three divine persons, three gods. Now I understand very, very well how one can play with words and definitions, and even throw in a little Greek, in an effort to smash three distinct entities in one entity. I understand how Christian theology claims to have “solved” the problem of turning Jesus into a god while claiming to be monotheistic at the same time. I understand how you can create definitions that will “solve” the problem to your satisfaction. Really, I do.

Yes, yes, multiple hypostates, one ousios, I get it. The key word here is MULTIPLE. Seriously, can’t you see that this is just metaphysical gymnastics? With a little effort, you could turn almost any polytheistic system into a monotheistic one. I know that it’s all good enough for you, but if you step back and look it for a moment, it really does come across as a patch job, a kludge. It just does.

Well, enough time wasted on this. As Zilch would say, chacun à son gout.

bossmanham said...

Seriously, can’t you see that this is just metaphysical gymnastics?

Another one of David's scintillating and well constructed arguments

bossmanham said...

[dash sarcasm]

River Sprite Worshiper said...

"Another one of David's scintillating and well constructed arguments."

I'm not David. David was killed off by the evil Alan, but was resurrected as....

River Sprite Worshiper!!!

(I hope I get a cape this time.)

bossmanham said...

You're really childish.

Rhology said...

Keep in mind that River Sprite Worshiper worships river sprites.

I don't know how foolish the Trinity is when compared to that system of belief.

zilch said...

I don't know how foolish the Trinity is when compared to that system of belief.

Good question, but I don't think there's any rational answer.

River Sprite Worshiper said...

"You're really childish."

Laughter is the sun that drives winter from the human face.

~Victor Hugo

Well, I'm off to visit friends and relations. Merry Solstice and Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah y'all!

bossmanham said...

Quoting someone about laughter doesn't disprove that you're a childish idiot. You've already proven that, you tool.

Rhology said...

Take it easy on the Stone Age pagan. He doesn't know any better.

Francis Turretin said...

Do these people not understand the difference between resurrected people and zombies?

Matthew C. Martellus said...

It would seem not. Either that, or they enjoy tendentiously misconstruing the text.

zilch said...

Francis- I've heard that zombies can't dance or tell jokes, and that they look just awful. But having no experience with either zombies or resurrected people, I must demur here.

Matthew-

Tendentious misconstruing
Is all that we are doing
When we should be pursuing
The truth.

Unscrewing the inscrutable
Eschewing the immutable
We are, it's irrefutable
Uncouth.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Rhology said...

Nice poem. I do like the word "uncouth".

Rhology said...

Nobody ever says "why can't you be more couth?", do they?

zilch said...

Rho- yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Of course the other word that now only exists in the negative is "unkempt". I try to be kempt and couth, but I don't always succeed.

River Sprite Worshiper said...

"Quoting someone about laughter doesn't disprove that you're a childish idiot."

Well, as Shakespeare said, life is tale told by an idiot.

You know, Brennon, you're too young to be such an old poop.

Don't be so sour. When you get to my age, you'll find plenty of things to be cranky about. Don't rush it, and in the meantime, try laughing a bit more. Life's an absurdity. Get used to it.


"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot."

-Douglas Adams

River Sprite Worshiper said...

An addendum.

I shouldn't say that "life's an absurdity", because that implies far more knowledge of life that I possess.

Let me clarify, and say more precisely that I think life is filled of absurd moments that should be enjoyed for what they are. The best that we can do is laugh at them. I mean, doesn't anyone else find the name "River Sprite Worshipper" amusing?

(Also, as a footnote, I must confess that I have no experience with zombies or resurrected people either).

zilch said...

Hey riverspriteworshiper, I'm with you. If it weren't for the absurdity of life, I wouldn't be here.

cheers from cool Vienna, zilch.

btw- what part of the world do you hail from, david?

zilch said...

Oh, and ps: being an old poop is an equal-opportunity employer. Old or young, theist or deist; doesn't matter, old-poopism can strike anywhere. If God exists, I'm willing to bet that She is not an old poop.

Francis Turretin said...

"But having no experience with either zombies or resurrected people, I must demur here"

"I must confess that I have no experience with zombies or resurrected people either"

As if knowledge can only be obtained through experience.

River Sprite Worshiper said...

Zilch,

I'm from Pennsylvania, and I'd agree that if God exists, She'd not be an old poop. Surely, She'd be a lover of absurdity.

zilch said...

Francis: how else?

David: what are you doing this coming summer? I'll probably be visiting friends in Oil City. If we get together, lunch is on me.

River Sprite Worshiper said...

Zilch,

Thanks for the offer of lunch. We'll be in Pennsylvania for part of the summer, and then out of state during other parts of the summer (vacation, etc.). The wife and I are still working on the plans.