I decided for some reason to challenge a couple of hateful comments at this video of a pro-lifer sidewalk counseling at the Orlando Child Sacrifice Den.The conversation has so far been decently interesting.
Lady you need medication. You don't even listen the bullshit you are spewing.
"...life that was written for you since the beginning of time"
That means dog wrote the abortion into his plan. Stupid ass.
Stop indoctrinating your poor children.
"...life that was written for you since the beginning of time"
That means dog wrote the abortion into his plan. Stupid ass.
Stop indoctrinating your poor children.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
It's no surprise you're entirely ignorant of the two wills of God, and
the command He gave us to teach Jesus to everyone in the world.
And what you call indoctrination I call good parenting - setting an example, teaching the truth. If you think it's false, I challenge you to debate. You'll lose. Badly.
And what you call indoctrination I call good parenting - setting an example, teaching the truth. If you think it's false, I challenge you to debate. You'll lose. Badly.
·
+Rhology
What debate? There's no debate - your basing all of your "truths" on a
book that was written by MEN that claimed the Bible was the word of a
God.
Your true faith isn't to god, your true ideals rest on the faith that those MEN were speaking the truth.
That's just the beginning, though. You see - any point you attempt to make will be null and void for one reason - and one reason only - there is no real ancient scripture of jesus and god - it has been translated so many times and no one can find the original writings.
I am not "ignorant" to your so-called "obligation" to spread the word of Jesus - it's just that I figured that's what churches are for.
If people wish to seek your god, then they can go to a church.
As far as indoctrination goes - sure I can debate you on this. I will start. (unfortunately it won't get anywhere, because I can already tell you that it will be a debate based on hypothetical situations - which isn't a debate, but a simulation of "what would happen if..")
Good parenting should be about teaching your kids to be good people JUST to be good people. There should be no incentive of riches, friends or heaven to be a good person and help your fellow man.
Here is where theists fall short, at least in my views. Let's assume you live as a good person, (helpful, charitable, friendly, non-combative etc etc) and you are hoping to get into heaven. Well, one would think that you are living as a good person just to get into heaven. Can we honestly say that if you were born and it was instilled from the beginning that you are bound for hell no matter what you do, that you would still continue to live as the same good person? As humanities track record goes, I would say no.
What is shown in this video is NOT good parenting. Look at the kids - they aren't interested in being there. What their mother is showing them is not the "light of jesus" saving the lost - it is showing them that you should do your best to shame other people to come to your state of thinking, and if that's your way of bringing the word of Jesus to people, then I definitely do not wish to be associated with your religion.
Also, you claim that it is "truth." Well maybe to you it is - however, if you are brow beating your children with these so-called truths at such a tender age - then they will come to accept it as truth. Here is the problem with that - they accept the truth that YOU, a fallible human, have presented to them. You have not given them a chance to figure things out on their own - or discover their own truths as far as spirituality goes.
Even if I were a person of religion - I would teach my kids empathy and to be a good person just to be a good person - when they got old enough, I would allow them to explore their own faiths because I would be secure in my belief.
Trying to hook your kids early just stinks of religious insecurity.
Your true faith isn't to god, your true ideals rest on the faith that those MEN were speaking the truth.
That's just the beginning, though. You see - any point you attempt to make will be null and void for one reason - and one reason only - there is no real ancient scripture of jesus and god - it has been translated so many times and no one can find the original writings.
I am not "ignorant" to your so-called "obligation" to spread the word of Jesus - it's just that I figured that's what churches are for.
If people wish to seek your god, then they can go to a church.
As far as indoctrination goes - sure I can debate you on this. I will start. (unfortunately it won't get anywhere, because I can already tell you that it will be a debate based on hypothetical situations - which isn't a debate, but a simulation of "what would happen if..")
Good parenting should be about teaching your kids to be good people JUST to be good people. There should be no incentive of riches, friends or heaven to be a good person and help your fellow man.
Here is where theists fall short, at least in my views. Let's assume you live as a good person, (helpful, charitable, friendly, non-combative etc etc) and you are hoping to get into heaven. Well, one would think that you are living as a good person just to get into heaven. Can we honestly say that if you were born and it was instilled from the beginning that you are bound for hell no matter what you do, that you would still continue to live as the same good person? As humanities track record goes, I would say no.
What is shown in this video is NOT good parenting. Look at the kids - they aren't interested in being there. What their mother is showing them is not the "light of jesus" saving the lost - it is showing them that you should do your best to shame other people to come to your state of thinking, and if that's your way of bringing the word of Jesus to people, then I definitely do not wish to be associated with your religion.
Also, you claim that it is "truth." Well maybe to you it is - however, if you are brow beating your children with these so-called truths at such a tender age - then they will come to accept it as truth. Here is the problem with that - they accept the truth that YOU, a fallible human, have presented to them. You have not given them a chance to figure things out on their own - or discover their own truths as far as spirituality goes.
Even if I were a person of religion - I would teach my kids empathy and to be a good person just to be a good person - when they got old enough, I would allow them to explore their own faiths because I would be secure in my belief.
Trying to hook your kids early just stinks of religious insecurity.
·
+Rhology Before
you reply, however, I warn you not to assume that I have not read the
bible. If you start throwing silly bible verses my way, I will just
counter them with other silly bible verses.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
Nah, we prefer to bring Jesus to others outside the church, b/c Jesus is Lord and He is really that great. My true faith IS to Jesus. It doesn't matter what you say.
And you're right,there is no debate. You know Jesus is real. The BIble says so. You are suppressing the truth in wickedness.
A debate here is not what I had in mind. On my blog, where I don't moderate.
But whatever.
Here's you:
\\Good parenting should be about teaching your kids to be good people\\
1) Prove that's what good parenting should be. What is your basis of that knowledge.
2) Prove you know what "good" is. Please provide an argument for your definition of "good". Prove you know what good is.
\\one would think that you are living as a good person just to get into heaven.\\
Nope! You don't know anything about the BIble, it would appear.
I live like Jesus b/c He saved me. He already saved me. Out of gratitude and love for Him, I live like Him.
\\What is shown in this video is NOT good parenting.\\
Once again, prove it.
Prove you're the authority on parenting. Prove you get to tell others what to do.
Prove you know what good even is. DEMONSTRATE how you know it.
\\What their mother is showing them is not the "light of jesus" saving the lost - it is showing them that you should do your best to shame other people to come to your state of thinking\\
Nah, this is just you emoting and speaking out of bias.
She DOES want to save the lost, I figure. And it's not SHAMING. It's sharing the law of God so that ppl will understand they are guilty before God and need the forgiveness of Jesus.
\\you claim that it is "truth." Well maybe to you it is\\
Your worldview is entirely jacked up if you think that truth depends on the viewpoint of the person. That's just ridiculous and absurd. It means you are not worth listening to, since you don't even know what truth is.
\\they accept the truth that YOU, a fallible human, have presented to them. \\
1) Meh. We're all fallible.
2) I actually teach my kids from the Bible so we don't have to worry about that very much.
\\You have not given them a chance to figure things out on their own\\
Sure we are! I give them plenty of chances to think about things on their own. But I will educate them.
Much like 2+2=4 - there's no room for "figuring it out" there. They need to know the bottom-line truth of things. That's my job as a parent.
\\I would teach my kids empathy\\
But you don't know why empathy is a good thing. You THINK it is, but I'm not asking for your opinion. I'm asking for an ARGUMENT. PROVE empathy is right to follow. Don't ASSUME it.
\\Trying to hook your kids early just stinks of religious insecurity.\\
That's stupid. I want to teach my kids the truth about all things.
Nah, we prefer to bring Jesus to others outside the church, b/c Jesus is Lord and He is really that great. My true faith IS to Jesus. It doesn't matter what you say.
And you're right,there is no debate. You know Jesus is real. The BIble says so. You are suppressing the truth in wickedness.
A debate here is not what I had in mind. On my blog, where I don't moderate.
But whatever.
Here's you:
\\Good parenting should be about teaching your kids to be good people\\
1) Prove that's what good parenting should be. What is your basis of that knowledge.
2) Prove you know what "good" is. Please provide an argument for your definition of "good". Prove you know what good is.
\\one would think that you are living as a good person just to get into heaven.\\
Nope! You don't know anything about the BIble, it would appear.
I live like Jesus b/c He saved me. He already saved me. Out of gratitude and love for Him, I live like Him.
\\What is shown in this video is NOT good parenting.\\
Once again, prove it.
Prove you're the authority on parenting. Prove you get to tell others what to do.
Prove you know what good even is. DEMONSTRATE how you know it.
\\What their mother is showing them is not the "light of jesus" saving the lost - it is showing them that you should do your best to shame other people to come to your state of thinking\\
Nah, this is just you emoting and speaking out of bias.
She DOES want to save the lost, I figure. And it's not SHAMING. It's sharing the law of God so that ppl will understand they are guilty before God and need the forgiveness of Jesus.
\\you claim that it is "truth." Well maybe to you it is\\
Your worldview is entirely jacked up if you think that truth depends on the viewpoint of the person. That's just ridiculous and absurd. It means you are not worth listening to, since you don't even know what truth is.
\\they accept the truth that YOU, a fallible human, have presented to them. \\
1) Meh. We're all fallible.
2) I actually teach my kids from the Bible so we don't have to worry about that very much.
\\You have not given them a chance to figure things out on their own\\
Sure we are! I give them plenty of chances to think about things on their own. But I will educate them.
Much like 2+2=4 - there's no room for "figuring it out" there. They need to know the bottom-line truth of things. That's my job as a parent.
\\I would teach my kids empathy\\
But you don't know why empathy is a good thing. You THINK it is, but I'm not asking for your opinion. I'm asking for an ARGUMENT. PROVE empathy is right to follow. Don't ASSUME it.
\\Trying to hook your kids early just stinks of religious insecurity.\\
That's stupid. I want to teach my kids the truth about all things.
·
+Rhology You
make me laugh. This is exactly the type of response I expected from
you. Just mindless parroting of what you learned either a) through being
indoctrinated or b) being born again, when you were mentally weakened
at a low point in your life.
You have no conclusions of your own. You have not reached your own truth, but the truth of others. I feel sorry for your mind - as it is wasted on silly things like crying that "Jesus Christ is truth" etc.
You don't want to debate - you just want to spout off silly delusions in attempt to cover up the confusion in your head.
Don't leave thinking you've won this so-called debate - because you have brought nothing to the table. Yelling about jesus is not synonymous with winning a debate, so your original statement is still unfounded.
You have no conclusions of your own. You have not reached your own truth, but the truth of others. I feel sorry for your mind - as it is wasted on silly things like crying that "Jesus Christ is truth" etc.
You don't want to debate - you just want to spout off silly delusions in attempt to cover up the confusion in your head.
Don't leave thinking you've won this so-called debate - because you have brought nothing to the table. Yelling about jesus is not synonymous with winning a debate, so your original statement is still unfounded.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
You're partially right. I have few conclusions of my own. That's a good thing. How much of the total available knowledge in this universe does any one human have? 0.1%? Far better to listen to the omniscient God who made everything than to foolishly act like you know better than He.
There is no "truth of others". Don't be a fool. There is truth, and non-truth.
I did want to debate. That's why I invited you to do so, and why I refuted your assertions with questions you don't dare to even attempt to answer. I knew you'd act like this. You're just one more in a long line of silly, shallow, abusive, biased atheists. You don't know your right from your left.
Jesus can save you from this foolishness. Repent and believe in Him. Trust Him. No longer trust your foolish reasonings that lead you to absurdity.
You're partially right. I have few conclusions of my own. That's a good thing. How much of the total available knowledge in this universe does any one human have? 0.1%? Far better to listen to the omniscient God who made everything than to foolishly act like you know better than He.
There is no "truth of others". Don't be a fool. There is truth, and non-truth.
I did want to debate. That's why I invited you to do so, and why I refuted your assertions with questions you don't dare to even attempt to answer. I knew you'd act like this. You're just one more in a long line of silly, shallow, abusive, biased atheists. You don't know your right from your left.
Jesus can save you from this foolishness. Repent and believe in Him. Trust Him. No longer trust your foolish reasonings that lead you to absurdity.
·
+Rhology Hey
brother, if you wanted to be like me - all you had to do was copy paste
my post. No need to strain yourself in attempting to repeat what I said
to you, back to me.
You did not present any assertions. All you replied with, in so many words, was "god is truth." Like I said, delusion is not synonymous with debate.
"There is no "truth of others". Don't be a fool. There is truth, and non-truth."
This line, though, is funny. It's like you are denying that men with power cannot bend the laws to fit their needs. Are you claiming that corruption is a myth?
You did not present any assertions. All you replied with, in so many words, was "god is truth." Like I said, delusion is not synonymous with debate.
"There is no "truth of others". Don't be a fool. There is truth, and non-truth."
This line, though, is funny. It's like you are denying that men with power cannot bend the laws to fit their needs. Are you claiming that corruption is a myth?
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
Yeah, you don't understand. I've been pointing out that EVEN IF YOUR
WORLDVIEW WERE TRUE, you would have no way to answer these questions I'm
posing.
But if MY worldview is true, my responses make perfect sense.
But we can't debate if you won't answer my questions. You'd have to give up your first set of "arguments" though. So now you just look like a fool.
Corruption just means that people act corruptly. Truth doesn't change. Unless you think that the truth that truth changes can change. Which is absurd.
Your worldview is a mess.
But if MY worldview is true, my responses make perfect sense.
But we can't debate if you won't answer my questions. You'd have to give up your first set of "arguments" though. So now you just look like a fool.
Corruption just means that people act corruptly. Truth doesn't change. Unless you think that the truth that truth changes can change. Which is absurd.
Your worldview is a mess.
·
+Rhology
You really are that dense aren't you? I can spell it out for you then -
Your bible is written by men. They can claim that it is the word of god, but even if that were the case - the original scripts have been lost for thousands of years, at least. Therefore, anything further has been interpreted and translated by humans. Please prove to me that the bible doesn't suffer from the grapevine effect - Or please prove to me that the people translating and interpreting the bible were not corrupt and did not attempt to change it to control the poor, weak willed and easily manipulated masses.
That being said, even if people were to have good intentions and attempt to interpret and translate the bible as closely as they could, they definitely would not have gotten the correct (aka - the truth you have found) message on paper. (Want proof? I've already stated several times that many of the original manuscripts were missing)
So - you sir, have been reading the bible that has been interpreted, re-interpreted, translated and re-translated by humans for the last couple thousand years - and as a result of the extremely high probability of the grapevine effect, you have been fed the word of man as opposed to the word of yahweh or allah or horus.
That sir is how corruption can change your truth - and you follow it blindly.
As far as my original set of arguments goes, you haven't asked me anything - you just go PROVE IT PROVE IT PROVE IT! - which is not a debate - I know my method works, because I am quite happy with my life - i know that the things I do for people make me feel good intrinsically and provides them some relief - whether it be charity work or just helping around the neighborhood. I don't need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to live a good person's life.
You want to know what makes empathy good? Empathy is good because it allows a person to understand what others may be feeling. If that person is not a sociopath - then they may be able to relate and assist someone that may be having troubles in their life.
If you need a silly book to explain this to you, then you have more problems in your mind than I have originally noticed.
You really are that dense aren't you? I can spell it out for you then -
Your bible is written by men. They can claim that it is the word of god, but even if that were the case - the original scripts have been lost for thousands of years, at least. Therefore, anything further has been interpreted and translated by humans. Please prove to me that the bible doesn't suffer from the grapevine effect - Or please prove to me that the people translating and interpreting the bible were not corrupt and did not attempt to change it to control the poor, weak willed and easily manipulated masses.
That being said, even if people were to have good intentions and attempt to interpret and translate the bible as closely as they could, they definitely would not have gotten the correct (aka - the truth you have found) message on paper. (Want proof? I've already stated several times that many of the original manuscripts were missing)
So - you sir, have been reading the bible that has been interpreted, re-interpreted, translated and re-translated by humans for the last couple thousand years - and as a result of the extremely high probability of the grapevine effect, you have been fed the word of man as opposed to the word of yahweh or allah or horus.
That sir is how corruption can change your truth - and you follow it blindly.
As far as my original set of arguments goes, you haven't asked me anything - you just go PROVE IT PROVE IT PROVE IT! - which is not a debate - I know my method works, because I am quite happy with my life - i know that the things I do for people make me feel good intrinsically and provides them some relief - whether it be charity work or just helping around the neighborhood. I don't need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to live a good person's life.
You want to know what makes empathy good? Empathy is good because it allows a person to understand what others may be feeling. If that person is not a sociopath - then they may be able to relate and assist someone that may be having troubles in their life.
If you need a silly book to explain this to you, then you have more problems in your mind than I have originally noticed.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
Of course the BIble was written by men. And breathed out by God.
I'm quite familiar with its textual history. What have you read on the topic?
What is your argument that the lack of original MSS is crippling? How have you overturned centuries of dedicated scholarship?
When you say "translated and re-trannslated", you actually betray ignorance about the process. Each translaton of the NT is a one-time deal. From Greek to English. From Greek to SPanish. From Greek to Swahilil. etc.
I don't follow it blindly. You merely assume I do. YOu don't know anything about me.
I have asked you to prove your assertions, yes. You make assertions, I question them. The next step is supposed to be where you provide reasons to accept your assertions, but you haven't done that yet. You're just commplaining that I'm skeptical of your blind-faith view.
You say you live a good life but by what standard of measurement do you know what good is?
So what if a person understands others' feelings? Aren't you begging the question?
Of course the BIble was written by men. And breathed out by God.
I'm quite familiar with its textual history. What have you read on the topic?
What is your argument that the lack of original MSS is crippling? How have you overturned centuries of dedicated scholarship?
When you say "translated and re-trannslated", you actually betray ignorance about the process. Each translaton of the NT is a one-time deal. From Greek to English. From Greek to SPanish. From Greek to Swahilil. etc.
I don't follow it blindly. You merely assume I do. YOu don't know anything about me.
I have asked you to prove your assertions, yes. You make assertions, I question them. The next step is supposed to be where you provide reasons to accept your assertions, but you haven't done that yet. You're just commplaining that I'm skeptical of your blind-faith view.
You say you live a good life but by what standard of measurement do you know what good is?
So what if a person understands others' feelings? Aren't you begging the question?
·
+Rhology "Of course the BIble was written by men. And breathed out by God."
That's silly. The writer's still got the final word.
"I'm quite familiar with its textual history."
Really? How? I figure if you're going to follow up with what I've read on the topic, then you should provide me with your expertise.
" What have you read on the topic?
What is your argument that the lack of original MSS is crippling?"
Here is what I find funny about this question. So I hope you understand my answer. I have read many scholarly articles written by theists who defend the authenticity of the gospel. However, even though their arguments are well worded and thought out - their conclusions are weak. They go into great detail explaining how people are confused when they think that the bible has been translated hundreds of times (which I also noticed you attempted to pin on me). I'm well aware that the bible was translated to many languages, but revisions have been made.
The unfortunate thing is that most of the books "questioning" the authenticity of the gospels are written by believers. So, you can see where the bias comes in - when the author thinks "Well, I KNOW my faith is the truth, but I will make an unbiased observation!" which, in reality is NEVER an unbiased observation, but instead turns into preaching. One such book that I read was "Can we Trust the Gospels" (sorry i don't remember the author)
WIthin that book the author details all of these reasons how the bible might be authentic, but he never makes any links to the writings on papyrus and the, so called, final print. As a matter of fact, he discredits his own argument because he pretty much says that even though the original papyrus would not have survived after such a long time, accurate gospel was most "definitely" kept on record throughout the millenium.
"How have you overturned centuries of dedicated scholarship?"
You're right, I personally have not overturned dedicated scholarship - however, most biblical scholars concentrate on the current message presented, rather than the accuracy of the message through the ages (most likely, because it is nearly impossible to track it back to the beginning due to the lost manuscripts).
See "Zealot: THe Life and Times of Jesus of Nazarath by Reza Aslan.
There are however other men that have indeed discredited the bible, if even unintentionally, and I may sound a bit cliche, but they are, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, etc etc. Scientists like them have shown us that the universe does not exist as it is portrayed in the bible.
"I have asked you to prove your assertions, yes. You make assertions, I question them. The next step is supposed to be where you provide reasons to accept your assertions, but you haven't done that yet. You're just commplaining that I'm skeptical of your blind-faith view"
I've said it before, if you wish to copy what I've pot-shotted towards you before, you may as well just copy and paste my entire post. I will explain again, that you haven't made a coherent rebuttal yet. You are just invoking a bunch of red herrings.
"You say you live a good life but by what standard of measurement do you know what good is?"
Humans are naturally good - until they get something they want - and they will want it enough to either manipulate and/or step on other people to get it. I live my life the way I want, but also I do my best not to affect those around me negatively. (Lying, stealing, hurting etc) I've explained it before - it's an intrinsic feeling of being "good." It's the reason we survived for thousands of years even though there were still evil men before the plagiarized "ethics" that were put forth by the bible.
"So what if a person understands others' feelings? Aren't you begging the question?"
Not sure what you're asking me. You wanted to know why empathy was good and I explained it to you.
"I don't follow it blindly. You merely assume I do. YOu don't know anything about me."
I find this funny because earlier you assumed that my world view is screwed up. As if my world view is based around me trying to discredit the bible. Yeeeaaah, don't flatter yourself too much by that. I'm perfectly fine with you living your Christian life - as long as you do not become a roadblock for those who do not wish to share your views.
That's silly. The writer's still got the final word.
"I'm quite familiar with its textual history."
Really? How? I figure if you're going to follow up with what I've read on the topic, then you should provide me with your expertise.
" What have you read on the topic?
What is your argument that the lack of original MSS is crippling?"
Here is what I find funny about this question. So I hope you understand my answer. I have read many scholarly articles written by theists who defend the authenticity of the gospel. However, even though their arguments are well worded and thought out - their conclusions are weak. They go into great detail explaining how people are confused when they think that the bible has been translated hundreds of times (which I also noticed you attempted to pin on me). I'm well aware that the bible was translated to many languages, but revisions have been made.
The unfortunate thing is that most of the books "questioning" the authenticity of the gospels are written by believers. So, you can see where the bias comes in - when the author thinks "Well, I KNOW my faith is the truth, but I will make an unbiased observation!" which, in reality is NEVER an unbiased observation, but instead turns into preaching. One such book that I read was "Can we Trust the Gospels" (sorry i don't remember the author)
WIthin that book the author details all of these reasons how the bible might be authentic, but he never makes any links to the writings on papyrus and the, so called, final print. As a matter of fact, he discredits his own argument because he pretty much says that even though the original papyrus would not have survived after such a long time, accurate gospel was most "definitely" kept on record throughout the millenium.
"How have you overturned centuries of dedicated scholarship?"
You're right, I personally have not overturned dedicated scholarship - however, most biblical scholars concentrate on the current message presented, rather than the accuracy of the message through the ages (most likely, because it is nearly impossible to track it back to the beginning due to the lost manuscripts).
See "Zealot: THe Life and Times of Jesus of Nazarath by Reza Aslan.
There are however other men that have indeed discredited the bible, if even unintentionally, and I may sound a bit cliche, but they are, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, etc etc. Scientists like them have shown us that the universe does not exist as it is portrayed in the bible.
"I have asked you to prove your assertions, yes. You make assertions, I question them. The next step is supposed to be where you provide reasons to accept your assertions, but you haven't done that yet. You're just commplaining that I'm skeptical of your blind-faith view"
I've said it before, if you wish to copy what I've pot-shotted towards you before, you may as well just copy and paste my entire post. I will explain again, that you haven't made a coherent rebuttal yet. You are just invoking a bunch of red herrings.
"You say you live a good life but by what standard of measurement do you know what good is?"
Humans are naturally good - until they get something they want - and they will want it enough to either manipulate and/or step on other people to get it. I live my life the way I want, but also I do my best not to affect those around me negatively. (Lying, stealing, hurting etc) I've explained it before - it's an intrinsic feeling of being "good." It's the reason we survived for thousands of years even though there were still evil men before the plagiarized "ethics" that were put forth by the bible.
"So what if a person understands others' feelings? Aren't you begging the question?"
Not sure what you're asking me. You wanted to know why empathy was good and I explained it to you.
"I don't follow it blindly. You merely assume I do. YOu don't know anything about me."
I find this funny because earlier you assumed that my world view is screwed up. As if my world view is based around me trying to discredit the bible. Yeeeaaah, don't flatter yourself too much by that. I'm perfectly fine with you living your Christian life - as long as you do not become a roadblock for those who do not wish to share your views.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
More naked assertions from you.
I have one question: Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
More naked assertions from you.
I have one question: Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
·
+Rhology Naked?
Really? Pretty sure I listed you a very small amount of my available
references. It's cool though. It's no skin off of my back. The fact that
you're just sitting there going "Is that the best you can do?" is just
reaffirming my understand, because what you don't realize is that from
the very beginning the burden of proof has been on you.
I took your bait willingly because you claimed I will lose some debate "badly"
Yet you have provided nothing.
Good day sir and thank you for bolstering my atheism.
I took your bait willingly because you claimed I will lose some debate "badly"
Yet you have provided nothing.
Good day sir and thank you for bolstering my atheism.
·
+IZMarkosKN650r
Actually, you never answered any of my questions despite talking a lot.
So, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
Actually, you never answered any of my questions despite talking a lot.
So, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
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+Rhology I have answered your questions - whether you choose to understand what I'm telling you, is not up to me.
"So, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?"
Not until your almighty dog comes down from heaven and tells me I'm wrong. However, I highly doubt that will happen, considering the thousands of deities to come into "existence" throughout the history of man.
"So, could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?"
Not until your almighty dog comes down from heaven and tells me I'm wrong. However, I highly doubt that will happen, considering the thousands of deities to come into "existence" throughout the history of man.
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+Rhology Hell, I'll answer it the way I would towards a 5 year old.
I cannot be 100% sure that dog doesn't exist, just the same as I can't be 100% sure that the loch ness monster doesn't exist, but I still have a really good idea.
I cannot be 100% sure that dog doesn't exist, just the same as I can't be 100% sure that the loch ness monster doesn't exist, but I still have a really good idea.
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+IZMarkosKN650r I don't see an answer there, anywhere.
I'm not asking about God. I'm asking whether you could be wrong about EVERYTHING.
Asked in another way, can you tell me one thing you know FOR CERTAIN AND how you know it?
I'm not asking about God. I'm asking whether you could be wrong about EVERYTHING.
Asked in another way, can you tell me one thing you know FOR CERTAIN AND how you know it?
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+Rhology You
would have to ask me specifically what I could be right or wrong about -
then I could either give you an answer, or not. If you're going to sit
there and ask if I could be wrong about absolutely everything, then
there is no point to continue - we can all be wrong about everything.
I've been trying to get you to get to your point for the last 2 days - so get to the preachiness already.
I've been trying to get you to get to your point for the last 2 days - so get to the preachiness already.
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+IZMarkosKN650r
OK, thank you for the answer - we can all be wrong about everything.
Now, if you ask me what the speed limit on the street is, and I say "40 mph...but I could be wrong", I don't KNOW it, do I?
If you could be wrong about everything you claim to know, you have given up knowledge. No knowledge claim you make is actually possible, then is it? If you could be wrong about everything?
OK, thank you for the answer - we can all be wrong about everything.
Now, if you ask me what the speed limit on the street is, and I say "40 mph...but I could be wrong", I don't KNOW it, do I?
If you could be wrong about everything you claim to know, you have given up knowledge. No knowledge claim you make is actually possible, then is it? If you could be wrong about everything?
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+Rhology
If the speed limit on the street has a sign that says 40 mph - then you know it's 40 mph based on our laws - whether you choose to follow that speed limit is solely up to you.
If you don't know what the speed limit is because you are unaware of the sign, then you are a liar.
As far as being wrong about everything I claim to know - I would say you're asking the wrong questions. There are varying degrees of knowledge. It's not all just one big bowl of knowledge that rests on an "all or nothing" mentality.
Some things I know based on experiences/research and/or research by others. Such as the effect invasive vegetative species have on endemic shrubbery in eastern PA. Also, gravity.(Scientific methods etc etc)
Some things I have a good idea about based on scientific theories. (which, I hope you understand is SEVERELY different from just an every day theory). Evolution, general relativity etc etc
Some things I don't know, but I'm pretty sure are inaccurate - such as religions. I don't mean I don't know about the religions, but let's be real - we won't truly find out anything about which religions are correct until we die.
Then there are things that I have absolutely no knowledge of, like how to build a rocket ship. Why Kim Jong Un is a happy looking fat man, but such an asshole etc etc.
If the speed limit on the street has a sign that says 40 mph - then you know it's 40 mph based on our laws - whether you choose to follow that speed limit is solely up to you.
If you don't know what the speed limit is because you are unaware of the sign, then you are a liar.
As far as being wrong about everything I claim to know - I would say you're asking the wrong questions. There are varying degrees of knowledge. It's not all just one big bowl of knowledge that rests on an "all or nothing" mentality.
Some things I know based on experiences/research and/or research by others. Such as the effect invasive vegetative species have on endemic shrubbery in eastern PA. Also, gravity.(Scientific methods etc etc)
Some things I have a good idea about based on scientific theories. (which, I hope you understand is SEVERELY different from just an every day theory). Evolution, general relativity etc etc
Some things I don't know, but I'm pretty sure are inaccurate - such as religions. I don't mean I don't know about the religions, but let's be real - we won't truly find out anything about which religions are correct until we die.
Then there are things that I have absolutely no knowledge of, like how to build a rocket ship. Why Kim Jong Un is a happy looking fat man, but such an asshole etc etc.
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+IZMarkosKN650r
You missed the point. If you didn't know the speed limit was 40, youo'd say "but I could be wrong", so you wouldn't KNOW it.
How do you know there are varying degrees of knowledge? I thought we could all be wrong about everything. Are you already taking back what you said?
Same response about all your other knowledge claims in this latest comment. Which is true?
You missed the point. If you didn't know the speed limit was 40, youo'd say "but I could be wrong", so you wouldn't KNOW it.
How do you know there are varying degrees of knowledge? I thought we could all be wrong about everything. Are you already taking back what you said?
Same response about all your other knowledge claims in this latest comment. Which is true?
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+Rhology Misread your 40 mph thing - yes if you say you could be wrong then you don't know.
Oh good you finally noticed I was being insincere when I said that. Keep up, Rholo - I was just telling you what you wanted to hear.
I have given you examples of varying degrees of knowledge.
Oh good you finally noticed I was being insincere when I said that. Keep up, Rholo - I was just telling you what you wanted to hear.
I have given you examples of varying degrees of knowledge.
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+IZMarkosKN650r But if you could be wrong about everything, couldn't you be wrong about your assertions about varying degrees of knowledge?
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+Rhology I
repeat, I was being insincere when I said I could be wrong about
everything. I was just telling you what you wanted to hear so you can
try to move onto your next point.
I know, for example that English Ivy can overtake native plant species in a very short amount of time (2-3 months). I know this, because I have seen it and I have done research so I know how I would treat it if it became a real issue in a preservation.
I know this, because I have experienced it and if we were to ever meet - I could walk you over to a problem area and show it to you, I could say, "See look here is English Ivy - if you look under the leaves, you can see remnants of old endemic shrubs that the ivy is killing because it is removing sunlight from those plants."
That right there disproves that we can be wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING.
I know, for example that English Ivy can overtake native plant species in a very short amount of time (2-3 months). I know this, because I have seen it and I have done research so I know how I would treat it if it became a real issue in a preservation.
I know this, because I have experienced it and if we were to ever meet - I could walk you over to a problem area and show it to you, I could say, "See look here is English Ivy - if you look under the leaves, you can see remnants of old endemic shrubs that the ivy is killing because it is removing sunlight from those plants."
That right there disproves that we can be wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING.
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+IZMarkosKN650r
OK, so you know that thing abbout English ivy b/c you claim you have seen it.
Do your eyes ALWAYS correctly see things?
Do your optical nerves ALWAYS correctly report those images to your brain?
Does your brain ALWAYS correctly interpret those impulses?
And even if you think the answer is yes to all those, how would you KNOW it?
OK, so you know that thing abbout English ivy b/c you claim you have seen it.
Do your eyes ALWAYS correctly see things?
Do your optical nerves ALWAYS correctly report those images to your brain?
Does your brain ALWAYS correctly interpret those impulses?
And even if you think the answer is yes to all those, how would you KNOW it?
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+Rhology Not
only have I seen it, but I can show it to you, your sister, you
brother, your uncle, the guy next door, the delivery man etc etc.
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+IZMarkosKN650r If any one of those parts of the pathway from external world to your mind were malfunctioning, how would you know it?
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+IZMarkosKN650r
See, I don't think you've thought about this very deeply. I'm trying to help you, b/c you are in the grip of great deception. Dig deep, seek a little humility, and answer the question honestly. Have the courage to face the logical conclusions of your worldview with intellectual honesty.
See, I don't think you've thought about this very deeply. I'm trying to help you, b/c you are in the grip of great deception. Dig deep, seek a little humility, and answer the question honestly. Have the courage to face the logical conclusions of your worldview with intellectual honesty.
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+Rhology Oh
really, and what do you know of my conclusions and my world view? Your
post is full of assumptions that have no merit, sir. As a matter of
fact, your diagnosis of my psychological state is an utter 180 of what
it really is. I told you at the start of this whole shebang not to make
silly assumptions about me.
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+Rhology Tell
me if I'm wrong though, you're trying to get to the point where I go,
"Well I guess I don't know if my senses are lying to me and, my
goodness, I guess in that sense I can't really know anything, therefore I
am lost and devoid of reason!"
In which case you attempt to swoop in and say "Jesus has all the answers!"
In which case you attempt to swoop in and say "Jesus has all the answers!"
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+IZMarkosKN650r It's not a dumb question. It's one philosophers have struggled with for centuries.
And yes, I'm going to get you to the place where you admit the obvious - you can't be SURE that your senses are correctly perceiving. Which means you can't actually know anything.
So, you can't know anything.
But you do know things. The only way to know things is to know everyhting yourself, OR, have revelation from someone who does.
You don't know everything.
You do know things, however.
The answer is that you know things the same way I know things - we have revelation from someone who does know everything.
And the payoff is that I am living in light of that truth, consistently with it. You are not, and Jesus will judge you and punish you for your sin and rebellion if you do not repent.
You can complain about that, but on your own you can't even know anything, so your complaint is pitiful and worthless.
Please, no longer suppress the truth you know. Repent of your sin and turn to Jesus. He will save your soul and you will no longer be a fool.
And yes, I'm going to get you to the place where you admit the obvious - you can't be SURE that your senses are correctly perceiving. Which means you can't actually know anything.
So, you can't know anything.
But you do know things. The only way to know things is to know everyhting yourself, OR, have revelation from someone who does.
You don't know everything.
You do know things, however.
The answer is that you know things the same way I know things - we have revelation from someone who does know everything.
And the payoff is that I am living in light of that truth, consistently with it. You are not, and Jesus will judge you and punish you for your sin and rebellion if you do not repent.
You can complain about that, but on your own you can't even know anything, so your complaint is pitiful and worthless.
Please, no longer suppress the truth you know. Repent of your sin and turn to Jesus. He will save your soul and you will no longer be a fool.
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+Rhology Whew, thank the tides! We finally got the obvious point I've been trying to get you to blurt out for the last 35 posts!
Senses can be tested by doctors and researchers. Considering I fly planes by hobby, I go to get my eyes checked annually - that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to let you know that my eyesight, and the impulses it inputs into my brain are just fine, otherwise I would not be sitting here typing this.
So being that you're such a philosiphizer (dodgeball) and I assume, you believe all that gobbledygook you've been trying to feed me, that you can't know everything and lying senses and some such stuff --- how does all of this philosophy not affect your faith? What makes you so sure you're own philosophy is trumped by the message in the bible?
Senses can be tested by doctors and researchers. Considering I fly planes by hobby, I go to get my eyes checked annually - that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to let you know that my eyesight, and the impulses it inputs into my brain are just fine, otherwise I would not be sitting here typing this.
So being that you're such a philosiphizer (dodgeball) and I assume, you believe all that gobbledygook you've been trying to feed me, that you can't know everything and lying senses and some such stuff --- how does all of this philosophy not affect your faith? What makes you so sure you're own philosophy is trumped by the message in the bible?
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+IZMarkosKN650r Drs and researchers also rely on their senses. Begging the question. Your position is still in total failure.
I know Jesus is real b/c of what I said already. The competitors are all literally absurd. Jesus solves this problem.
I know Jesus is real b/c of what I said already. The competitors are all literally absurd. Jesus solves this problem.
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+Rhology My
position will always be in total failure in your eyes, unless I accept
jesus, so I'm not worried whether or not you think I'm right or wrong.
Well clearly, whatever senses Drs and researchers rely on are working since we aren't all dying due to our ever-evolving technology.
Anyway, even if we did pretend that your god and jesus exist, I would still willingly burn in hell (or join satan's army - that'd be cool.. get demon wings)
Well clearly, whatever senses Drs and researchers rely on are working since we aren't all dying due to our ever-evolving technology.
Anyway, even if we did pretend that your god and jesus exist, I would still willingly burn in hell (or join satan's army - that'd be cool.. get demon wings)
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+IZMarkosKN650r Saying "we've developed tech" begs the question at hand, which is how you know your senses are working right.
So again you employ fallacious reasoning.
Jesus can rescue you from your sin and from your fallacious reasoning. Repent of your sin. The Lord will save your soul and your reasoning. You don't have to be a fool.
So again you employ fallacious reasoning.
Jesus can rescue you from your sin and from your fallacious reasoning. Repent of your sin. The Lord will save your soul and your reasoning. You don't have to be a fool.
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My
senses work because survival requires our senses to send the proper
messages to our brain, so that we may react accordingly. This is why
people, who lose certain senses, utilize methods that will give them a
similar effect (seeing eye dogs, cochliar implants etc)
If my senses were to be in poor condition, I would not have been able to fly planes, or notice the chimney fire that occurred last winter - therefore, I would have either been in a plane crash of my own doing, or collecting insurance from a burned down house.
So you, you ask how I know my senses are working, it's because I'm still alive. How do I know I'm alive, because there is no evidence that I am not.
When a person, such as yourself, attempts to be so philosophical yet somehow is satiated with "jeebus" being the answer for everything - I find it hard to take anything they say to heart.
Somehow I doubt you've ever turned the mirror on yourself, you're too busy judging the acts of others without evaluating yourself, since you've already reached the "truth."
Try as you might though, I hope you are frustrated with my lack of "lashing out" at you for your silliness. Sorry buddy boy, but I won't allow you to feel like a martyr.
Jesus should worry less about rescuing me and handle the horrors that are occurring around the world to innocent people - but he won't will he? No, no he won't.
If my senses were to be in poor condition, I would not have been able to fly planes, or notice the chimney fire that occurred last winter - therefore, I would have either been in a plane crash of my own doing, or collecting insurance from a burned down house.
So you, you ask how I know my senses are working, it's because I'm still alive. How do I know I'm alive, because there is no evidence that I am not.
When a person, such as yourself, attempts to be so philosophical yet somehow is satiated with "jeebus" being the answer for everything - I find it hard to take anything they say to heart.
Somehow I doubt you've ever turned the mirror on yourself, you're too busy judging the acts of others without evaluating yourself, since you've already reached the "truth."
Try as you might though, I hope you are frustrated with my lack of "lashing out" at you for your silliness. Sorry buddy boy, but I won't allow you to feel like a martyr.
Jesus should worry less about rescuing me and handle the horrors that are occurring around the world to innocent people - but he won't will he? No, no he won't.
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+IZMarkosKN650r
You are still begging the question. You could have survived for entirely different reasons than that your sensory perception works. You're like someone who survived a plane crash and then, when asked how he survived, answers: "Obviously I survived. How else would I be standing here talking to you?"
You are begging the question when you assert that you have flown planes. Etc.
There is also no evidence that you ARE alive. You've got to think a little more deeply here.
Why is Jesus not the answer to these questions? Go ahead and give me your argument.
Of course I have examined myself and my views. Many times. But you can't answer these challenges and my position can. That's why I remain a Christian.
Finally, you presume to tell Jesus how to run His universe. Fine. You say He should do those things. Why should He? Who are you to dictate morality to anyone else? How do you know your morality is right? How did you SENSE that you have correct moral values?
You are still begging the question. You could have survived for entirely different reasons than that your sensory perception works. You're like someone who survived a plane crash and then, when asked how he survived, answers: "Obviously I survived. How else would I be standing here talking to you?"
You are begging the question when you assert that you have flown planes. Etc.
There is also no evidence that you ARE alive. You've got to think a little more deeply here.
Why is Jesus not the answer to these questions? Go ahead and give me your argument.
Of course I have examined myself and my views. Many times. But you can't answer these challenges and my position can. That's why I remain a Christian.
Finally, you presume to tell Jesus how to run His universe. Fine. You say He should do those things. Why should He? Who are you to dictate morality to anyone else? How do you know your morality is right? How did you SENSE that you have correct moral values?
3 comments:
The really sad part is that people like your intrepid interlocutor are everywhere. Blind to their own blindness, numb to their own numbness, deaf and dumb to their own deafness and dumbness.
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11
But by the grace of God there go I...
CD
Not sure how I ended up on your blog but I watched that video and read through your discussion, you forgot the last post.
IZMarkosKN650r11 months ago
"You're like someone who survived a plane crash and then, when asked how he survived, answers: "Obviously I survived. How else would I be standing here talking to you?""
What? If I survived a plane crash and was asked how did I survive, I wouldn't be answering them as if they asked "Are you alive?"
----
As far as the question of my being alive goes - there is no real answer. People around me acknowledge that I am present. That's all the proof I need to be sufficient. I don't concern myself with existentialism, though. I either am, or I am not - right?
Although, there was many-a-time that I have wished the shitty world we live in is all just an elaborate dream.
---
Jesus is not the answer, because it is insufficient. Having studied different religions, it became apparent, that creation of deities was sparked by a misunderstanding of our surroundings and our environment. When ancient people witnessed thunder and lightning storms, they thought there was a man in the sky creating a ruckus - because they had no way of interpreting it otherwise. As time passed and discoveries were made, we now know that lightning is nothing more than a static shock.
As we further discover our universe, we will learn more answers that no religion can answer beyond "It is the way it is because, (insert random god name here) said so".
---
"Finally, you presume to tell Jesus how to run His universe. Fine. You say He should do those things. Why should He? Who are you to dictate morality to anyone else? How do you know your morality is right? How did you SENSE that you have correct moral values?"
I don't presume to tell jesus anything, because he does not exist in the divine sense. I'm sure he was a nice man, but we haven't seen anything to prove that he is a divine being.
As far as my moral values go, I know that my morals are good for me and those around me. I just try to live my life without directly affecting anyone negatively - by negatively I mean causing pain, sadness, heartache, stress. (Obviously I can't help butterfly effects)
I could care less how others live their lives as long as they don't directly affect my life negatively or the lives of those around me negatively.
It is just my assumption that an all-powerful and all-loving god would show his "creations" at least a bit of his love - instead millions of people succumb to diseases and meaningless religious wars on a daily basis and yet all we hear from Christianity is a promise of eternal happiness and a potential judgment day.
Sammy
Thanks, Sammy.
His reply doesn't help matters.
As far as the question of my being alive goes - there is no real answer.
If atheism is true, there's no real answer for ANYthing.
People around me acknowledge that I am present.
Assumes your senses and reasoning are functioning properly, but you need to prove that rather than assert it.
That's all the proof I need to be sufficient.
But how is it proof?
there was many-a-time that I have wished the shitty world we live in is all just an elaborate dream.
Repent of your sin and follow Jesus, and this world will be the closest you ever get to Hell.
Jesus is not the answer, because it is insufficient.
Well, He answers pretty much everything, so I don't know what you mean. Atheism can't even ground reasoning and intelligibility. Jesus does. Let's just stop right there.
that creation of deities was sparked by a misunderstanding of our surroundings and our environment
More basically, it was sparked by sin.
they thought there was a man in the sky creating a ruckus - because they had no way of interpreting it otherwise
They could have, if they had followed the true Creator God.
As time passed and discoveries were made, we now know that lightning is nothing more than a static shock.
"We"? You mean, that's what you've been told. You place your faith in fallible humans all the time, but you won't place your faith in the infallible God even when you have all the reason you need to do so.
we will learn more answers that no religion can answer beyond "It is the way it is because, (insert random god name here) said so".
You know what I'd really like an answer to? Here it is: "How do you know that your senses and reasoning are functioning properly?"
I don't presume to tell jesus anything, because he does not exist in the divine sense
You're juking the question, but that's OK. There is no answer. Who made you Pope of Morality? Who said that you're the one who gets to decide what the purpose and goal of life and the universe are?
As far as my moral values go, I know that my morals are good for me and those around me.
According to what standard do you judge goodness?
by negatively I mean causing pain, sadness, heartache, stress
How do you know those are negative?
It is just my assumption that an all-powerful and all-loving god would show his "creations" at least a bit of his love
1) Finally you're speaking more honestly and dropping slightly the "JUST THE FACTS BECOZ I'M AN ATHEIST" veneer you've been wearing.
2) He has shown tons of love. He has given all kinds of good things on this Earth to enjoy, and we deserve none of that generosity.
instead millions of people succumb to diseases and meaningless religious wars on a daily basis
Let's test your Bible knowledge. Why does the Bible say that happens?
yet all we hear from Christianity is a promise of eternal happiness and a potential judgment day.
Take off your blinders. You're wilfully ignorant.
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