A faithful abolitionist and his family sacrificed of his time and energy to warn and preach the truth and the Gospel to attendees of a recent event in his area put on by a Word of Faith heretic.
He then posted some pictures and stories about his experience on Facebook. The following conversation ensued.
Pharisee Disciple: Hmmmm. Still trying to discern the motive here. Are y'all sent out there by a local pastor or any church government or authority?
September 7 at 9:23am
The Abolitionist In Question: The motive is love for God's Church. There are probably some sheep that are going in there that have ears to hear. We are there for them.
As far as being sent: we have King Jesus and all of His commands as authority enough as our dispatch orders.
September 7 at 9:51am
A Former Abolitionist Who Has Ingested the Leaven of the Pharisees: His commands are to love one another assuming we are part of a governing body that He established.
Yesterday at 1:26am
Me: All believers are sent out by the authority of Jesus Christ. No other authority or sending is necessary.
A better question is: Why weren't other Christians and churches out there doing the same?
23 hours ago
Me: Where does the NT say anything about a GOVERNING body?
23 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: If you are doubting the structure that paul lays out how the churches should put forth its congregation then you are ignoring passages of scripture for your own personal desires and you must repent of your apathy of not being in a church whom has such authority to send such out for ministry. Jesus didnt call us to be individual cults running where ever our hearts believe is important. Jesus specifically wanted us to love one another and serve one another as the end of Matthew.
23 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: I am i the comfortable of the sufficiency of God's creative design of His church who is those people who are sent from. We will answer to Him why we have rebelled against His word and His people.
9 hours ago
I do not doubt what the Apostle Paul laid out in the NT. What I doubt is that you are properly representing what the NT teaches regarding ecclesiology.
I would like you, please, to answer my questions instead of speculating about my motives.
Also, another question:
Where does the NT speak of a local church having authority? You said they have authority. Where does the NT teach that?
Where does the NT teach something like "you can't do ministry until you have been sent out by a local church"? What does "sent out" mean biblically? Why does the Great Commission say nothing about a local church sending out a person?
7 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: Answer: The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the importance of local assemblies. In fact, it was the pattern of Paul's ministry to establish local congregations in the cities where he preached the gospel. Hebrews 10:24-25 commands every believer to be a part of such a local body and reveals why this is necessary.
And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near (Hebrews 10:24-25).
It is only in the local body to which one is committed that there can be the level of intimacy that is required for carefully stimulating fellow-believers "to love and good deeds." And it is only in this setting that we can encourage one another.
The New Testament also teaches that every believer is to be under the protection and nurture of the leadership of the local church. These godly men can shepherd the believer by encouraging, admonishing, and teaching. Hebrews 13:7 and 17 help us to understand that God has graciously granted accountability to us through godly leadership.
Furthermore, when Paul gave Timothy special instructions about the public meetings, he said, "Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching" (1 Timothy 4:13). Part of the emphasis in public worship includes these three things: hearing the Word, being called to obedience and action through exhortation, and teaching. It is only in the context of the local assembly that these things can most effectively take place.
Acts 2:42 shows us what the early church did when they met together: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Christians came together:
to learn God's Word and the implications of it in their lives.
to join to carry out acts of love and service to one another.
to commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection through the breaking of bread; and they prayed.
Of course, we can do these things individually; but God has called us into His body, the church, which is the local representation of that worldwide body. We should gladly minister and be ministered to among God's people.
Active local church membership is imperative to living a life without compromise. It is only through the ministry of the local church that a believer can receive the kind of teaching, accountability, and encouragement that is necessary for him to stand firm in his convictions. God has ordained that the church provide the kind of environment where an uncompromising life can thrive.
The members of the invisible Church are the actual body of believers. They are the ones who are truly regenerate and have trusted, by faith, in the true Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The true Christian is indwelt by the Lord Jesus (John 14:23) through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Christian church is figuratively said to be the body of Christ.
Rom. 12:5, "So we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."
Eph. 4:12, "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ."
The word "church" comes from the Greek "ekklesia" which means "gathering" or "assembly." Therefore, the church is the gathering of the believers who come together to participate in fellowship with one another as they worship God and hear from His Word, the Bible. The church as a whole has been equipped with people possessing different spiritual gifts (Rom. 12:5-8). The purpose of the gifts is "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:12-13).
The Christian church was founded by Jesus, and He is its Head and Savior (Col. 1:18; Eph. 5:23). Being in the church, the Christian is subject to the Lordship of Jesus (Eph. 5:24) through the administration of the Word of God.
The Bible does not provide a detailed method of Church government. But, it does state that there are to be elders who govern in the church. These elders are appointed by the laying on of hands (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6). They are to be able to teach sound doctrine and refute error (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).
The purpose of the church is to both glorify God and to inform the world about the work of Christ as Redeemer.
7 hours ago
The Abolitionist In Question: We are part of a local body that practices these things, and believes these things. Where have we given you the impression that that is not true? The question remains, where does it say in the NT, or even demonstrate, that we have to be "sent" by those in "authority" from a local body, to obey the commands and clear teaching of Christ?
6 hours ago · Unlike ·
Me: Of course local assemblies are important. Nobody is doubting that here. But that doesn't answer my questions, AFAWHItLotP.
Yes, I agree with your third paragraph. Nobody has questioned that here.
\\The New Testament also teaches that every believer is to be under the protection and nurture of the leadership of the local church\\
Yes, all other things being equal, that is true.
There are numerous examples of churches in the NT in which that was not true, but we don't have to discuss that for now. Also, be careful that in whatever zeal you have for the "authority" of elders that you don't diminish the fact that all believers in a local body are to be teaching each other (Col 3) and submitting to one another (Eph 5:21), and that all are to aspire to be able to be teachers (Heb 5). In my experience, those who throw around verbiage like you are throwing around want biblical cover for a church structure where a few men lead everything and then everyone else sits back and lets them provide religious services while the majority consumes those services in exchange for a fee (ie, the tithe). I pray that is not the case with you, for it is actually unbiblical.
\\Furthermore, when Paul gave Timothy special instructions about the public meetings, he said, "Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching"\\
That's fine and I agree. It doesn't answer my questions, though.
\\Acts 2:42 shows us what the early church did when they met together\\
Yes, and that looks a lot more like organic church rather than modern American institutional churches.
Also, the apostles are all dead. How do we devote ourselves to the apostles' teaching? Reading the Scripture. But how does that have anything to do with the questions I asked you?
\\Active local church membership is imperative to living a life without compromise.\
I agree, unless of course there aren't any faithful local churches around the believer in question.
\\It is only through the ministry of the local church that a believer can receive the kind of teaching, accountability, and encouragement that is necessary for him to stand firm in his convictions. \\
This denies the possibility of a large amount of apostasy in a given area and the ability of the Lord to provide for a believer in the midst of darkness all around him in a contingency case.
I understand that you're trying to say that the local church is important, and I agree with you on that. Just be careful about the way you say it, for in this sentence you have exceeded what is written.
Anyway, I pray you will look over your last comment again in light of the questions I'm actually asking, and I'd like you to answer those questions. I'm not saying local church membership is unimportant. Please read what I actually asked, and answer those questions. Thank you in advance.
6 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: We arrive at it systematically what scripture has given us. Jesus even sent out the disciples in pairs of two and He is represented as the Head of the Church. Im not going to argue with you already. Your question has been answered throughly. A mere unacceptable of my answer does not negate my answer. Even though you have accused me of exceeding what is written id like for you to actually read what has been written and check yourself to be approved. I believe that if you are not supported or built up by a local church then it is very possible you are rogue and in need of repentance.
My church does not support me financially when i go to the killincs nor let me agitate the congregation that i attend but they do pray for me and allow me to do such with the knowledge that i know the Gospel and love people.
4 hours ago
Me: \\ Jesus even sent out the disciples in pairs of two \\
Nobody is arguing Christians should go it alone.
\\ He is represented as the Head of the Church\\
Yes, Jesus is the Head of the Church. Not anyone else.
\\I believe that if you are not supported or built up by a local church\\
Whether Christians ought, all other things being equal, to be supported and built up by a local church has never been in question. I honestly think that it is you who are not reading carefully.
\\My church does not support me financially when i go to the killincs nor let me agitate the congregation that i attend but they do pray for me\\
Your church is at peace with child sacrifice.
So is the Baptist church of which I am a member.
It doesn't sound like they have "sent you out", actually, AFAWHItLotP. Are you sure you're being consistent?
4 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: That is all genetic and condescending. Im calling you out of your refusal to obey proper Church government and all your doing is getting emotional about it. My church or any church is not at peace with child sacrifice, least you pay taxes offered to child sacrifice? You are to love one another and serve one another, feed the homeless and take in the orphan, loving your neighbor is among them but isnt the only thing commanded to us to pursue. If you are at a church that is at peace with child sacrifice perhaps theres other places of service you can attend locally. If that be a problem
3 hours ago · Edited
AFAWHItLotP:: "Sent out", prayed for, ministered, taught throughly scripture, built up in godliness
3 hours ago
Me: I honestly do not believe I am getting emotional. What makes you think that I am? I think I am asking honest questions and challenging your original assertions about "authority" and being "sent out" and such.
What makes you think I disobey proper church gov't? What have I said that makes you think so? Have I given the impression that I am not a member of a local church? If I have, I apologise; I am a member.
\\My church or any church is not at peace with child sacrifice\\
I'm sorry, but if you're one of the only ones or the only one who does anything like sidewalk counseling, and if the leadership is telling you that you can't agitate your own congregation, then your church most certainly is at peace with child sacrifice.
What would make anyone think your church is not at peace with it? One single member?
\\If you are at a church that is at peace with child sacrifice perhaps theres other places of service you can attend locally\\
1) Physician, heal thyself.
2) I actually don't think that leaving the church is the best course of action, and I have my reasons, but I do sincerely appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
\\"Sent out", prayed for, ministered, taught throughly scripture, built up in godliness\\
How do the latter four items relate to being "sent out"? And why haven't you quoted any Scripture to define the term?
3 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: I have quote much scripture already. Again a unwillingness to accept my answer is not a negation of my answer.
"All believers are sent out by the authority of Jesus Christ. No other authority or sending is necessary.
A better question is: Why weren't other Christians and churches out there doing the same?"
Is this not your first of many questions i have already responded to?
2 hours ago
Me: I don't see how you have answered that question, no.
You started off asking about the authority and the sending out. I said Jesus has all authority and He sent us out.
You have said some irrelevant things after that. Perhaps it was to justify cutting off abolitionist brethren as you have done? You ought not to act or speak this way.
2 hours ago
AFAWHItLotP:: First of all Jesus sent out His disciples. Second you are cutting off brethren by speaking against churches in your comments. And what i gave you was all relevant how we drive our motive of ministry how scripture portrays not our personal "us against the world" feeling.
2 hours ago
Me: Yes, Jesus sent out His disciples.
What? "Speaking against"? No no no, not at all. Pointing out sin is not speaking against. It is a good thing. All the prophets did it. Moses did it. Jesus did it. Paul, Peter, John, Jude... all those guys did it. That is really a bad way to look at it, and a totally unbiblical way to look at it.
I guess when you tell someone at the killinic that they are sinning when they murder their child, that's "speaking against" them? Come on.
And I am not cutting off brethren, not at all. I ask you to read my comments fairly, AFAWHItLotP. You are not being fair. Nowhere did I say "and therefore I will have nothing to do with these people."
In point of fact, have you not separated yourself from abolitionists yourself, and is it not true that you are refusing to reconcile with them? Are you not being hypocritical?
about an hour ago 2
AFAWHItLotP:: Its fine to point out sin, never said you couldnt. Its the language in which you generalize "church" being in sin is a problem. Wish not that i call you out of your apathy of giving to the poor or loving your wife, because i should not assume you dont care about those in need. Do you see my point?
Im not union with abolitionist, im in union with fellow godly men and women who are in churches not of my own. Our unique diverse background gives us a greater reason to love one another and trust that the Gospel is being presented... Not just a method of how the Gospel is dispersed.
So Call me a hypocritical for wanting the proper biblical structure to have a foundation to speak the Gospel. Ive seen rogues downtown, they are either heretics or extremely off course with real biblical doctrine. - its not just me and my bible under a tree. There is family to serve and love
about an hour ago
Me: \\ Wish not that i call you out of your apathy of giving to the poor or loving your wife\\
You can and let the facts speak.
But I'm not apathetic about those things. Further, feeding the poor is not even close to as important as loving your preborn neighbor who is being murdered.
\\Do you see my point?\\
I have seen it for over a year and my response has been the same for over a year. But nobody has taken the argument any further. Nobody has responded to my arguments.
\\Im not union with abolitionist\\
You were, in some ways. Now you're not. This is unrighteous of you.
\\Our unique diverse background gives us a greater reason to love one another and trust that the Gospel is being presented\\
So repent of your cutting them off and show more love to them than you have been in recent days.
\\So Call me a hypocritical for wanting the proper biblical structure to have a foundation to speak the Gospel\\
You misunderstand. And it's not that I am calling you a hypocrite. YOU ARE a hypocrite as of now, for cutting off brethren.
Also, you don't want a proper biblical structure. You are advocating for extrabiblical rules and you are imposing them on others, like the other abolitionist here. If you disagree, PROVE your assertions about authority and sending from the Bible. Don't assume them, and don't cite irrelevant texts or texts that are out of context. Do the hard work. If you're right, and if you've been taught properly by the men you think are in authority over you, then it should be a simple task to accurately handle the Word of God.
If you can't, you ought to repent of your wrongheaded ideas and reexamine the NT.
\\ Ive seen rogues downtown, they are either heretics or extremely off course with real biblical doctrine\\
Sure, so have I. What has that to do with anything?
\\its not just me and my bible under a tree. \\
But who are you talking to? Don't talk to those guys; they're not here. Talk to ME.
about an hour ago
Me: It is also bad to believe false things about the Bible. Now, imagine a church in Germany during the rise of the Third Reich, who is quite alarmed by the powerful rise in crazed anti-Jewish sentiment, turning Jews into third-class citizens, dehumanising them. Should that church intervene in the incipient Holocaust against these people? Or, should they concentrate all their time and resources on making sure that everyone in Berlin knows that the only correct Bible version is the Kaiser Johann Version?