Tuesday, July 01, 2008

Hymenæus makes his return

Hmm, OK...
I've been accosted by a HyperPreterist, just like Adam Dada so long ago, probably b/c I commented over here...


Now apparently this commenter, Mr. EZE, did not read much of the debate that transpired between Adam and me, but here's a quick recap.

Point 1 - The Curse is not yet lifted
Point 2 - The Resurrection is inextricably linked to Christ's Parousia (coming)
Point 3 - Liars don't enter in
I'll add a Point 4 - if this is the Kingdom, the Kingdom sucks

Mr. EZE didn't ever deal with those points, but the night is young yet.

Mr. EZE,
Welcome! Given how quickly you posted this comment, it's obvious you didn't read any or any extent of the debate I had with Adam B Dada 14-15 months ago.


He came again, and received them unto Himself, so that where He was, they could be also.

Just look around you. Is this The Kingdom? Wow, if so, this sucks!


If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting to be where he is. (John 14:3,18,28)

Yes we are.


If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting for the plan of redemption to be fulfilled (Revelation 10:7, Ephesians 4:30)

Perhaps you've heard the term "the already/not yet of redemption".
The plan is finished, but it's not yet taken to its full extent in time. It WILL happen and all the elements except the appropriate timing are fulfilled.

Implication - Christ's death on the cross and resurrection are not enough for the redemption of mankind.
Here's just one reason why this is heresy.



If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting to be individually redeemed from our sins. (Luke 21:28, Colossians 1:14)

Luk 21:27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

1) Oops, we didn't see the Son of Man coming in a cloud yet.
2) And of course, the Son of Man's coming is inextricably tied to the resurrection in the NT, and that hasn't happened yet either.
3) And "redemption" here doesn't necessarily have to mean the way EZE wants it to.

Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Which speaks not at all to the timing of said redemption.
Try again.

If Christ has not come, then we are still in the "last days," 1900 years later. (Hebrews 1:2, Acts 2)

And? Is not a day as 1000 yrs to the Lord and 1000 yrs as a day (2 Peter 3:8)?
This is responded to here.


If Christ has not come, not one jot or tittle has passed from the Law. (Matthew 5:17-18)

Which it hasn't.


If Christ has not come, then some Christians are being quite aged. (Matthew 16:28, I Thessalonians 5:23; I Corinthians 15:51)

Mat 16:28 - and the Transfiguration happened the very next chapter. 3 of those men saw it.

1Th 5:23 - this is a prayer, not a prophecy. Did they also get sanctified entirely, so that they never ever sinned again?
Besides, God will restore our bodies to perfect wholeness at the time of the Resurrection.

1 Cor 15 - yes, we WILL all be changed. And we ain't changed yet. If this is the Kingdom, I want my money back.
If this is the Kingdom, is there sin anymore? Death? Redemption? Does preaching the Gospel matter?


If Christ has not come, then the charismata (tongues, prophecy, etc.) are still in effect. (I Corinthians 13:10)

Fine with me.
Not that I've ever seen, after 6 yrs in charismatic circles, those spectacular gifts exercised biblically.


If Christ has not come, then the dead are still waiting to enter into heaven, and, to this day, "sleep" in their graves, waiting to enter into his rest. (I Corinthians 15:20-23)

They're in Paradise, as Christ told the thief on the cross.
Neither are they unconscious.


If Christ has not come, then the Old Covenant is still waiting to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13. 10:8-9)
If Jesus is still in the Most Holy Place (Heaven) and our sins will not be forgiven until he leaves. (Hebrews 9:23-28)

Are you completely unfamiliar with the context and point of Hebrews? It's referring precisely to the Old Covenant, which IS taken away in Christ. Yet it is His coming and sacrifice and resurrection that have ushered the New in, not His 2nd coming.


If Christ has not come, then we can still miss salvation after having been partakers of the Holy Ghost. (Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Corinthians 5:5)

1) For a HyperPret like you, there is no salvation.
2) You're misinterping Heb 6:4-6 badly. The psg says that those who fall away CAN'T COME BACK. So the choice is:
1. Believe that those who fall away once are screwed forever.
2. Believe that Heb 6 is not referring to a loss of salvation, and thus abandon it as a prooftext against eternal security.

2 Cor 5:5 is a point in my favor - the Spirit is a down payment, a promise, a pledge, of our future redemption.

If we say that Christ has not come, we are still waiting to be adopted as sons. (Romans 8:23)

Yes, we are waiting for the redemption of our BODY.


If we say that Christ has not come, we are still waiting for salvations. (Leviticus 16:17, Hebrews 9:28, Galatians 5:5)

I love it - you cite Leviticus! And a totally irrelevant verse, what is more.
Heb 9:28 - yes, "He WILL appear, to those who eagerly await Him." Can a HyperPret eagerly await Him? No, a HyperPret thinks He's already come and has toned down his expectations for what Christ's eternal Kingdom will look like in order not to want to kill himself out of despair. Where's the glory? Where's the freedom from sin and sinners? Why the persecution of believers? Why the sin I still struggle against every day?


If we say that Christ has not come, we are still dead in our sins.

Did you mean 1 John 4:1-2?

1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the {spirit} of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

John wasn't writing after the Parousia, was he? No, not even according to you. And the whole point is to respond to Gnostics, who claimed (contra Dan Brown) that Christ was never a real man, that He was God only, not man also. Those who deny "Christ has come in the flesh" are antichrist. 1st Coming.


If we say that Christ has not come, then we make Christ a liar. (Matthew 16:27-28; Revelation 21:20)

Dealt with Matt 16 already.
Rev 21:20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

I leave it to the reader to decide just how rational and coherent Mr. EZE is.

16 comments:

eze said...

O.k. I've provided 101 time relevant statements from the inspired word of God; please provide your inspired scripture supporting a future coming of Christ.

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)
5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)
7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)
9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)
10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Luke. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Luke. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Luke. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Luke. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Luke. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Luke. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Luke. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Luke. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Luke. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Luke. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Luke. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Luke. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (John. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (John. 21:22)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Corinthians. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Corinthians. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Corinthians. 10:11)

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Corinthians. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Corinthians. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thessaloians. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thessaloians. 5:23)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thessaloians. 1:6-7)

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Hebrews 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Hebrews 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (James. 5:1,3)

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (James. 5:7)

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (James. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I John. 2:8)

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I John. 2:17)

85. “It is the last hour.” (I John. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I John. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I John. 4:3; Compare II Thessalonians 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Revelation 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Revelation 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Revelation 2:25)

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Revelation 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Revelation 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Revelation 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24; Compare Matthew 23:35-36; Luke. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Revelation 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Revelation 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Revelation 22:10; Compare Daniel 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

Rhology said...

EZE,

Every single one of the Scriptures you provided in your previous comment were irrelevant, completely misunderstood, or totally out of context, and now you want to throw out more?

How about dealing with the first ones? And since I answered your already-lengthy comment, please deal with my 4 points and then I'll be happy to engage some of these 101 verses, though that's a lot. We may have to go equal time/equal time.

Let's see you actually interact with my arguments first.

EZE said...

I'm sorry about the long post' my bad" please if you can answer me this,
If soon meant soon to Christ's generation how is it that soon means soon to you now, 2000 years later?

remmber 1Cor 2:14

"the already/not yet of redemption" Is this a riddle is it evan scripture, please provide scripture

Rhology said...

It's not the length of the comment that bothers me so much as your evasion of questions put to you as well as the refutations of your 1st arguments. Don't act like a Mormon missionary, OK? Make a point and defend it; when proven wrong, be man (woman) enough to admit it.

How did my repeated reference to 2 Peter 3:8-9 not answer your question already?


Are you even reading my responses? This is a serious question - I see no acknowledgement on your part so far that you've read my arguments.

DTG said...

RHOBLOGY yo' you are in trap state of blindness. Just as the Jews were full of the book but lack understanding. But would quote the law until Jesus exposed them to the people. Like a hyper-futurist will "always" say it doesn't mean this all that. I'll wait for your confused remark. No need to read your answer to your so-called debate. We have heard those dead answer before are you kidding! To start you "not" living in the last days. THE CHRIST/grace age is "everlasting" Ephesians 3:21
of course this doesn't mean this does it. But one knows you guys have answer alright. btw what is you hold meaning eschatology so we
can is it worth writing about.

eze said...

O.K, fair can we start over, I'll answer your question on 1Peter 3:8-9, then you can answer a question for me, is that acceptable?

I'm not sure what you mean by "man enough" but we can leave the flesh out of this.

Rhology said...

It's 2 Peter 3, not 1 Peter.

One question each seems fair. I've answered approximately 15 of yours so far, so I'll be happy to trade 4 for 15. Here are my 4 points, I'd like answers to each, please.

If Jesus has already returned, why:

Point 1 - is the Curse not yet lifted?
Point 2 - is the Resurrection inextricably linked to Christ's Parousia (coming) in the NT?
Point 3 - are liars apparently in the Kingdom, since Revelation tells us liars don't enter in?
Point 4 - if this is the Kingdom, why does it suck so bad?

Anonymous said...

I'm the guy whom Rhology referred to as mean spirited in his, "Whining comes natural", blogspot. He posted an edited, but essentially accurate, line from a private post I'd sent him, "-if G(od)D(id)I(t), you wouldn't be dishonest, you wouldn't be hypocritical, you wouldn't be mean." In his text, he, in essence, denied that he was any of the three.

I've known Rhology for something over three and a half years. I won't speak to the hypocritical or mean - although I believe those to be, at least intermittently, accurate characterizations. I will speak to my implication that Rhology is dishonest.

I started communicating with Rhology sometime in 2004 if my memory serves me correctly (my e-mail records don't go back to our earliest exchanges). He struck me as a kind, intelligent, honest individual. That's how he -initially - struck me. But by 1 October 2005, I'd rethought, to varying degrees, all of those adjectives with respect to him.

My frustration with what I concluded was regular and consistent dishonesty led me to write the following e-mail (I've changed nothing save references to our real names):
=======================
1 Oct 2005
To: rhology@______.com

With recognition that everything I say or do is witness to my honesty, to my character, and to the influence on me of any God or persons by whom I claim to be influenced, I assert the following to be true.

In all of my communications with Rhology, barring those cases where I was being sarcastic and felt the sarcasm would be obvious to any reasonably intelligent person, to the full extent that my memory serves me,
I never stated as fact something I didn't believe to be fact,
I never stated as my opinion something that wasn't my opinion,
I never knowingly misrepresented, in the slightest, the position or opinion of anyone,
I never submitted quotes by anyone, in or out of context, that I didn't feel accurately represented the quoted person's position,
I never selectively quoted, or edited a quote, in a way that I felt changed, in the slightest, the meaning or intent of the quoted person's unedited, fully in-context statement,
I never made a statement that was intended to lead Rhology to a conclusion that I believed to be, in the slightest, untrue.

JP

I went back through a number of our old e-mails. I've generated answers to 21 of the questions you asked and apparently concluded I'd "refused" to answer. I'm willing to forward ALL of those answers to you with the single condition that your first return to me an assertion identical, except for the places you and I are identified by name, to the assertion I gave you at the beginning of this e-mail:

With recognition that everything I say or do is witness to my honesty, to my character, and to the influence on me of any God or persons by whom I claim to be influenced, I assert the following to be true.
In all of my communications with JP, barring those cases where I was being sarcastic and felt the sarcasm would be obvious to any reasonably intelligent person, to the full extent that my memory serves me:
I never stated as fact something I didn't believe to be fact,
I never stated as my opinion something that wasn't my opinion,
I never knowingly misrepresented, in the slightest, the position or opinion of anyone,
I never submitted quotes by anyone, in or out of context, that I didn't feel accurately represented the quoted person's position,
I never selectively quoted, or edited a quote, in a way that I felt changed, in the slightest, the meaning or intent of the quoted person's unedited, fully in-context statement,
I never made a statement that was intended to lead JP to a conclusion that I believed to be, in the slightest, untrue.

[rhology, your name would go here]

You have no idea how interested I am in seeing whether you'll essentially assert, to both me and to God, that you've represented Him well by consistently demonstrating honesty and character in your interchanges with me. My guess is that you are a "True Believer", that the prospect of making the assertion scares the beegeebees out of you (because the statement wouldn't be true for you), and that you will therefore not make it. People have surprised me before though. I'll be checking my in-box.
=====================

Rhology's recent criticism of Dr. Robyn Meyers wasn't his first. I've know Dr. Meyers for about the same length of time I've known Rhology. I don't agree with Dr. Meyers on everything but for some time I've admired him for his energy, his ethic, and his honesty.

A January 2006 criticism of Dr. Meyers by Rhology, prompted me to send Rhology the following e-mail:

=============
15 Jan 2006
To: rhology@______.com>

In the time that I've known Robin Meyers, I don't remember a single instance where he stated as true something I knew to be false, even partially, or that I later learned to be false, even partially. A mere handful of the people I know or have know fall into that category (I tend to remember those people because scrupulous honesty is probably THE behavior I most admire).

I know of one person in particular from whom I NEVER expect absolute honesty. He's a really nice guy and I'm confident he's pretty ethical overall. I even think he works hard to avoid making bald-faced lies. But the tool of scrupulous honesty is not in his ethics toolbox; I suspect it never will be.
====================

In case it isn't obvious, the "one person" to whom I was referring was Rhology. I recommend against taking anything Rhology says at face value.

JP


A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-Albert Einstein

Rhology said...

That comment probably would've been better placed here, as the Anonymous commenter made clear, just FYI.

EZE said...

Point 1 - is the Curse not yet lifted?
EZE's Response: I say that the curse is lifted. The problem most people have is that they think that the curse has to do with physical nature. I watched a program last night with N. T. Wright-- brilliant theologian-- and he was trying to explain that one of these days, the physical earth will be renewed, restored, back to Eden or better. This is the fallacy! The curse was sin, and, Christ has solved that in our lives.
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Point 2 - is the Resurrection inextricably linked to Christ's Parousia (coming) in the NT?
EZE's Response: Yes, the resurrection and parousia are inextricably linked (1 Corinthians 15:23)

Point 3 - are liars apparently in the Kingdom, since Revelation tells us liars don't enter in?
EZE's Response: No, I see that liars are outside the city. It is in the city where there is life, light, and blessings. Outside the city are the dogs, liars, etc.
Christ said, John 18:36, it is not of this world.

Point 4 - if this is the Kingdom, why does it suck so badly?
EZE's Response: The problem is, with what eyes are we looking? As Paul chided the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 10:3-7), we have a tendency to look at things "after the outward appearance." However, this is not the way Christians are to look at things! What does, "We walk by faith, and not by sight" mean, anyway? Over and over, scripture calls on us to see things with the eyes of faith, not through the human perspective.
In this regard, I love 1 Corinthians 3:22. If you read that through human eyes, then you would almost think that Paul was crazy! He was writing to slaves, social outcasts, and the poorest of the poor. Yet, he said the world belonged to them! He said that death belonged to them! Well, many of them would be put to death by persecutors!
So, from the eyes of humanity, they didn't own anything, didn't control anything, nothing! But, in the eyes of God, everything belonged to them-- and us!


By the way what view do you hold to?

My question is this: What is the Biblical concept of the resurrection

Gladiator said...

From the DTG, What age are we livivng in. Give a verse please for your answer. To end right you must start out right,where ever that point start's from to end right.

Rhology said...

Might take me a while to respond, sorry. It's a holiday, after all. Thanks for your patience.

EZE said...

Rhoblogy, is your response directed to be or DTG?

Rhology said...

Yes.

EZE said...

yes means to me EZE or to DTG, and if to DTG, will you answer my question?

Rhology said...

EZE,

Thanks for answering. I do have some time today but won't be able to respond again probably until at least next Tues. Thanks again for your patience.

I say that the curse is lifted.

Ahhhhh, so it is. You're absolutely right.
Gen 3:17 Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

Let's see...
-Yep, we don't toil anymore to grow food.
-We don't have to weed our gardens or apply pesticides or herbicides to our crops; they're never bothered by any of that stuff.
-We don't have to work for our food.
-We don't die nor return to the dust when we die.

Yep, pretty obvious that the curse is lifted.


the physical earth will be renewed, restored, back to Eden or better. This is the fallacy!

Sin is A curse, but not the curse I'm talking about. There's more than one.
Of course, that brings up a very crucial point. According to you, there is no more curse, and since curse=sin for you, there's no more sin.
Raping a little girl isn't sin. Murdering children isn't sin. The Holocaust wasn't sinful. My stealing all your stuff isn't sinful. Lusting after women and porn isn't sinful.
Man, that's great news! FOr my flesh, that is.
The other side of that coin is that with no sin, there's no Gospel. You are a Gospel-less man, and I pity you greatly for that.

Yes, the resurrection and parousia are inextricably linked (1 Corinthians 15:23)

Great!
And that's obviously happened too, b/c 1 COr 15 describes what is obviously the case in today's world! Right?
Umm...

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cr 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

So everything is in subjection to the Son? Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are? The ACLU is? Barry Lynn and the Americans United for the Separation of Commonsense and State?

1Cr 15:32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.

Well, in your view the dead are already raised. Why not eat and drink for tomorrow we die?

1Cr 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable {body,} it is raised an imperishable {body;}
1Cr 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cr 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual {body.}

And of course, the bodies that people had before 70 AD were WAY weaker than the ones we have today. I mean, just look at how people can still live long lives though they abuse their bodies with drugs, sedentary lifestyles, and tons of McDonald's!
How numerous people who exceed 300 lbs can stay alive! It's CRAZY. Such, such power!

1Cr 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

I don't know about you, but I DEFINITELY bear the image of the heavenly. Yessiree.

1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Hmm, this makes me a little uncomfortable. I mean, I still have flesh and blood, and I'm gonna die, but, oh well. Must be a textual variant, forced into the text from the futurist power structure hierarchy.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

One wonders when that happened. And how the end result is different from how the earth and people used to be.



No, I see that liars are outside the city.

Correct, and this world is the city at least according to Adam Dada. Maybe you have a different take on things.
So how does one get to this city? Where is it? What is its nature?


Christ said, John 18:36, it is not of this world.

Correct, but it WILL BE in the world when He returns and melts it with extreme heat (2 Peter 3) and remakes it into the New Jerusalem (Rev 22).


The problem is, with what eyes are we looking?

The same eyes that the Psalter, Job, Paul, Peter, and all the other biblical writers used when they looked at their circumstances IN THE WORLD vs the glory that WILL BE revealed in them. They complained about the state of the world and its sin. THey describe what sin is. You're telling me that sin no longer exists in the world even though the world corresponds exactly to what the Bible says it is in the writers' time.


By the way what view do you hold to?

I'm not sure. I haven't done a ton of study on that topic, but Orthodox Preterism looks like it's my current partial favorite.


What is the Biblical concept of the resurrection?

Read 1 Cor 15 and you're most of the way there, though that's not all of it. You're in trouble just from 1 Cor 15, so we can start there.



DTG said:
btw what is you hold meaning eschatology so we can is it worth writing about.

I'm really sorry, but I can hardly understand you in this comment.
I considered myself lucky to have deciphered your previous comment at Pulpit Pimps, but I'm lost here.
If you're asking what my personal eschatological position is, see above.
If you're asking what the meaning of "eschatology" is, it's "the study of the end times".
If I didn't follow you, please forgive me, but please put a little more thought into the structure of your comment so I can understand.

Peace,
Rhology