Tuesday, March 27, 2007

Hymenaenism discussed

In the combox for my previous post, Adam has already been stirring up controversy w/ the erstwhile Italian scholar Turi, and Turi has rightly taken him to task:
I cannot imagine how anyone could honestly represent modern history as the New Earth... tell this Adam fellow when you get to talking with him that I at least am highly disappointed and should like my money back.
Indeed.
A cursory glance over Adam's comments on the LivingRoom blog will reveal that he holds to all sorts of wacked-out ideas. No offense is intended to him personally, but rather a warning - he is a blind man leading other blind men and is on his way to destruction.

One of my main thesis statements for responding to Adam's Hymenaean claims will be 2 Peter 3:
2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 5For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
(boldface mine, of course)

Hymenaeanism is an ancient heresy, one of the oldest. It stems from Paul's twice mentioning having to rebuke Hymenaeus for teaching that the resurrection had already occurred. Adam does the same, and from this erroneous position flows a stream of twisted, damnable, and indeed damnING doctrine; that sin is gone, that Christ has already come, that the Old Testament is garbage, that there is no heaven or hell, that all will be "saved", that "saved" is totally different from the NT presentation of it, that the resurrection is not of the body.

He is one of the scoffers mentioned in the 2 Peter passage. He says things like

In my Bible, it shows Christ reminding those early Christians that He would be coming back to vanquish sin, while some of them would still be alive, in the current generation. It doesn’t say that He might take 2000 years to return. Are you calling Christ a liar, or is my Bible wrong when it says He was returning in that generation, while some of the first Christians were still alive, to vanquish sin once and for all, reuniting all to God’s favor?
Loose translation: Where is the promise of His coming?

Adam believes that the judgment has already occurred and that Christ has already come back.
Turi already touched on one of the arguments I would like to cite against his position.

Point 1 - The Curse is not yet lifted
Romans 5 lets us know that Jesus is the 2nd Adam, Who will overturn the curse laid upon humanity in Genesis 3.
Do women still have pain in childbirth? Do thistles still grow in the garden? Does man still work hard to eat his bread? Does he still return to dust? Of course!
But wait - Revelation 22 tells us in v. 3 that
No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
If this earth is the new earth, why is the creation still in bondage to decay?

Point 2 - The Resurrection is inextricably linked to Christ's Parousia (coming)
Adam and other Hymenaeans will tell you that the resurrection has already taken place, but the only way they can hold that position is to redefine drastically what "resurrection" is, and their definition ends up very far from the NT definition.
You know, Adam, Mormons believe in the "resurrection" also. It's what you mean by it.
1 Cor 15:12-57 is a bit long to post here, but here are some key parts:

v.14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

v.17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

v.22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

v.35But someone [read: Adam] will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"

v.50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

The resurrection occurs at the same time as the judgment, the Last Day!
John 6:39
Acts 17:30-32

Believers' bodies will be changed at the resurrection to resemble Christ's resurrected, glorified body.
Romans 6:5
Phil 3:20
Why? B/c, as 1 Cor 15 says, the perishable cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Point 3 - Liars don't enter in

Finally, I want to note that we preach Christ crucified and resurrected. But if Adam is right, we are liars according to 1 Cor 15:15, and our faith is VAIN. I don't know why Adam claims the name "Christian", but then again I don't understand how he could hold the position he does.

Rev 21:
22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
But since I preach what I preach, I am a liar if Adam is right. Yet, according to him I still live in the City and all has been fulfilled, and I participate in it (albeit indirectly).
Rev 22:15 tells us that liars will not enter in.


This is a plea for Adam to repent of his false teaching, to turn and be saved. Psalm 2 (which Adam rejects as "dung"), not to mention numerous other passages in the Scriptures, tells us of the fearful wrath of the LORD as He regards the scoffers who mock Him. Adam, it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Here's hoping the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin.

1 comment:

A.B. Dada said...

Rhoblogy: A cursory glance over Adam's comments on the LivingRoom blog will reveal that he holds to all sorts of wacked-out ideas. No offense is intended to him personally, but rather a warning - he is a blind man leading other blind men and is on his way to destruction.

And what exactly is your Biblical basis for "destruction." What do you believe that the non-Futurist will see after mortal death? Please don't say Hell, because I would assume an intellectual Bible-theologian such as yourself understands that there is no Hell in the Bible, not during Jesus' time and surely not now.


Rhoblogy: Hymenaeanism is an ancient heresy, one of the oldest. It stems from Paul's twice mentioning having to rebuke Hymenaeus for teaching that the resurrection had already occurred.

Funny that Paul rebuked Hymenaeus for his timing, not for what he taught. It is interesting that Paul never corrected Hymenaeus on his teaching of HOW the New Kingdom would come. Any Christian then could look around and see that nothing really changed, but they didn't call him out on THAT -- just the timing. Paul also knew that the New Kingdom would come spiritually, not physically. Christ Himself said it would not be visible.


As to 2 Peter 3, I think we can agree that the 1000 years/1 day comes from Psalm 90, correct? In neither case is anyone saying that 1000 man years is equal to a day of God's, they are saying it is "like a day" -- that time really doesn't pass for the Lord. They're not saying that "at hand" or "quickly" means thousands of years, at all. They're just showing God's patience, but that He would be judging the Jews quickly nonetheless, just no one knew exactly when.

In the Old Testament, the document that 1st century Jews were familiar with, the same words were used and they always meant what we would assume them to mean -- quickly means quickly. At hand means at hand. Soon means soon. God's "timeframe" didn't matter there either.

Go look at Ezekiel 7:2+8, where God poured out His Covenant shortly on Israel (and He did, shortly). God told Ezekiel that the End was coming soon, that the day was "at hand." And it did.

Ezekiel, like myself, at detractors who wanted to pretend that 1000 years WAS one day to God (not like one day). Zedekiah and the Jews didn't trust Ezekiel, and they were caught in God's Judgment, just as the unbelieving Jews of the 1st Century were, too.

We know from Hebrews 10:23 that God is faithful, and fulfills His promises. He promised to come quickly, in their generation. He made an even bigger promise to the 1st century believers in Hebrews 10:37 (spoken directly to the Jewish believers of the 1st Century!): For in just a little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. In older translations, the verse is For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Little while, will not tarry.

If you're familiar with the timing of ALL prophecy in the entire Book (new and old testaments), you see that whenever God said He would do something quickly (or near, or at hand), it happened as such. Why would God break a promise? (Matthew 3:1-2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 21:27-32, Acts 24:15). It is unbelievable that God, who fulfilled all of His Promises in the past in the expected time frame, would break this promise or try to confuse those He promised. Salvation wasn't for the entire world, it wasn't for modern Christians, it was for the very chosen people who fled His Word, His Law and His Love to bow to pagans and mortal kings. Salvation was meant for the Jews who accepted their Savior, who would return in THEIR generation, and would not tarry.


Rhoblogy: Romans 5 lets us know that Jesus is the 2nd Adam, Who will overturn the curse laid upon humanity in Genesis 3.
Do women still have pain in childbirth? Do thistles still grow in the garden? Does man still work hard to eat his bread? Does he still return to dust? Of course!


Romans 5:18 says that Christ's Return was for everyone, by the way. It doesn't save for believers alone.

I just read 5 different translations of Romans 5, and I see no place where the curse of Adam would be lifted. The penalty (eternal death from God's Love) would be (is) gone, but nothing about the curses. Even the version you linked to says nothing about the curses being lifted -- it just talks about the penalty of sin (violating God's Law).


Rhoblogy: No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.If this earth is the new earth, why is the creation still in bondage to decay?

I'm not sure where you read that mortal things won't decay -- God's Kingdom is not mortal, it is spiritual. It won't come visibly! The Kingdom that God reigns in IS perfect, and all are welcome, but few will see it in their mortal lives. It is obvious from the mess that the temples of organized religion are in that very few indeed do understand that the Kingdom is now, and the Ecclesia of God is within all to grasp. So many mortal lives wasted in judgment of others instead of loving others and serving others. We have more DVDs in our living rooms that we can count the number of people we've served in this life, I'd guess.


Keep reading Rev 22, where it says that even after Revelation's final battle, the nations would still exist. And they do. The "City" that God lives in is one that is among all the nations -- His Love for all is available for you today. Revelation was NOT about destroying this mortal earth, it was about fulfilling the Covenant with the Jews, which God did. That very Temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, and guess what? It has not been rebuilt. Miracle, or God's goal fulfilled?


Rhoblogy:But someone [read: Adam] will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?

No, I don't ask that, because I know that the bodies talked about in that verse (and others) have nothing to do with our mortal bodies at all. We are given new spiritual and holy bodies, but our mortal bodies don't change. Even reading beyond the verse you quoted shows that -- it is a spiritual body we haven been given, and that body is awaiting us in gloriousness. Read it, understand, and believe: 40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.


Rhoblogy: v.50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Yes! Thank you for answering it for me. The perishable bortal bodies can not inherit the Kingdom, but the imperishable spiritual ones can, and do! Exactly!


Rhoblogy: Rev 22:15 tells us that liars will not enter in.

Actually, lying has nothing to do with Revelation. Revelation was written as a prophecy to the judgment of Israel, not to the world. The unclean won't enter (and Jews knew they were always unclean, except after giving a sacrifice at the Great Temple). There were two ways to be clean: believe in Christ (if you were a 1st Century Jew), or sacrifice at the Temple. Guess what? The Temple fell, so animal sacrifice was ended (every non-believing Jew was forever more unclean).


Rhoblogy: This is a plea for Adam to repent of his false teaching, to turn and be saved. Psalm 2 (which Adam rejects as "dung"),

Repent from what? I was not under God's Covenant with the Jews, I live under His new Covenant in the New Kingdom. I serve. I don't lie. I don't trick others in believing me. I use the very Book to show people God's Love for everyone, even the non-believer (but especially the believer). I give away all of my extra earnings to those who believe.

I don't believe in 'churches' as even in the Book we don't see denominations or churches, we saw the assembled Body (Ecclesia) where they prepared for the Second Coming, so the entire Body can unite after the day of judgment (it happened). Now we all are loved by God, and He rules the Kingdom, ready to prepare those who listen to the Spirit for eternal works and bliss. For those who ignore it, they are not condemned.

If you believe people are condemned, where do they go after mortal death? If you believe salvation is for today, who is saved? Jesus said only the few would see the Kingdom in His timeframe, so how is it that 2.1 billion Christians would be "a few."

Revelation is over. The unclean Jews were purged, almost all of them killed by famine, pestilence or the army of the Beast (Nero) who assembled his armies. The whore of Bablyon (Israel) is no more God's Chosen Bride, instead all of man is His Bride, all equally loved by the Creator of all. Stop going to your congregations, I say, and show love to others regardless of what they say or do. Turn from YOUR wasted life (and many of you know that you life feels unfulfilled because God doesn't bless it like you pretend He would), and focus on serving others in your community, not in your "church."

God must be confused by the Futurists. He prepared such a glorious and perfect Kingdom for us, here and now, and so many of us can't see it. So be it, I guess.