Continuing from earlier... Note how I'm a "bully" now, apparently because I take the time to answer people reasonably and point out flaws in their thinking. Ironic because these interlocutors used to bully me, only for real.
BK: I said they had a 5th grade education because they could read, write and use arithmetic. They had barely a grip on science and higher math. Sure they had scholars but you ask them why does it rain and they answer because God wants it to. You ask them, how do you know your history and they say well it was orally handed down for hundreds of years. For crying out loud Rhology you have played telephone and know that you can’t get the exact message across a rule let alone a generation. So yes I stand by my 5th grade education remark.
Of course the church didn’t have power the first 300 years. You need followers to have power but with the conversion of the Roman Empire it gained power. And as early as the late 8th century it was considered above many monarchs. Do me a favor and look up the term “Papal infallibility” and if that isn’t saying that the pope speaks for God I don’t know what would.
Ok on to the simple fact of we believe what our parents… actually lets expand that to elders believe. How do you know Jesus? Didn’t someone tell you about him? Then they handed you a book and said this was inspired by God. Before you strike me down for blasphemy I am not declaring this true or false in any way. I am simply stating that you believe in God because your elders believed that msy not be why you believe now but that is usually how it starts.
Why do find it easy to say that “What we see here, ironically, is that you, BK, are believing these false things because someone told you that they were true.” I freely admit I could be wrong. Can you say the same. Could you be wrong Rhology? Are you perfect? Are you infallible?
Let me say that I agree with the below 100%
“I'm certain that you realise that just b/c someone claims to interp the BIble a certain way doesn't mean that:
1) they themselves actually thought that's what the Bible said, as opposed to consciously abusing it to give themselves power, or
2) the Bible does actually say what they say it says..”
I brought it up just to show how it was used as a tool.
Translated and retranslated means just that. If you read the bible today it reads as if the people were speaking our own language and own style of writing. The old testament was written in what , Hebrew? The New Testament was written in Greek or Latin? Not sure which language but it wasn’t written in 21st century American style English so yes translated and then retranslated. I am sure your right and they got every word right no possible flaws there.
Now to the comment about me doing my best frankly that is insulting. I know what you were getting at, I know that everyone sins and no one is perfect Rhology but I expect an apology.
Me: Hi BK,
I don't know where this is going. You don't seem to be putting much thought into these comments. You're speaking out of what seems to be little more than prejudice and thirdhand information. Also, you don't seem to have taken into account what I said before. A great example of this is your repetition of my believing in Jesus because "my elders" told me. Why didn't you reply to what I already said? Please do respond to that; I'm not going to repeat myself.
--5th grade ed
You don't know any of these things. You're just making it up.
How do you know they "had barely a grip on science and higher math"? Provide us some evidence. I'm not sure how you'd go about proving a negative.
Also, Luke the physician? The apostle Paul? Solomon? 5th grade?
Also, could you please answer my question about why this education issue matters since the Bible is inspired revelation of God?
--"it rains b/c God wants it to"
So, you think that it rains b/c God doesn't want it to?
Or God has nothing to do with rain?
Why assume God has nothing to do with it? Why do you think this understanding is wrong?
Also, you are confusing "5th grade ed" with complexity of scientific knowledge. If your society isn't advanced enough to figure out the physical processes that cause rain, you don't try to spend a lot of time on teaching that, so do you not spend MORE time on OTHER things?
--"You ask them, how do you know your history and they say well it was orally handed down for hundreds of years. For crying out loud Rhology you have played telephone and know that you can’t get the exact message across a rule let alone a generation"
Reading written history is like playing a game of telephone? HOw do you figure?
--"with the conversion of the Roman Empire it gained power"
1) It wasn't the "conversion" of the entire Empire. It became the state religion, which does not entail converting everyone in the Empire.
2) And this was nearly 360 years after Christ.
3) And you are not taking into account the differences of development and state-church politics that prevailed in the West (ie, Rome) and the East (ie, Constantinople and other 'apostolic sees').
In short, you're greatly oversimplifying the case in order to somehow cast aspersions against the authority of the Word of God. Do you think this is a commendable practice? Is God OK with that? Is He happy about it?
--"And as early as the late 8th century it was considered above many monarchs"
As early as? You do realise that was 700 years after Jesus?
And this has to do with what, exactly, as regards the authority of God's Word?
--" Do me a favor and look up the term “Papal infallibility” and if that isn’t saying that the pope speaks for God I don’t know what would. "
1) And do ME a favor and look for that term or concept within the first 600 years of Christianity.
2) Also please do me the favor of checking into the history of the eastern church (which is why I said "Christendom" in my first comment to you; I was speaking carefully, which you have not yet done) to find whether much of anyone EVER thought of the POpe in the way that you describe.
Let me give you a hand with that - they never did.
So only some in the West ever thought of the POpe like that, and not for centuries. Virtually no one in the East ever did. And no one in the Protestant churches ever did. So that's very far from your original assertion.
--". How do you know Jesus? "
I read the Bible.
How do YOU know about Jesus?
--" Then they handed you a book and said this was inspired by God"
Not really how it went down.
And I doubted it was inspired by God until God acted on me to change my heart. He convinced me of its truth and inspiration, not "someone".
--" Before you strike me down for blasphemy"
I'm sorry, I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
--" I am simply stating that you believe in God because your elders believed that msy not be why you believe now but that is usually how it starts."
And I've already told you that millions of others as well as I do not believe b/c of what you said.
Could you please retract your ill-founded point, since it is false, and move on?
--"I freely admit I could be wrong. Can you say the same. Could you be wrong Rhology? Are you perfect? Are you infallible? "
1) So how can we know which of us is right on this question?
2) You seem pretty confident; confident enough to make all these naked assertions that are ignorant of history. I'm glad you let us know that you could be wrong, but wouldn't it have been more honest and open to say that beforehand, before you were caught with questions you apparently can't answer?
I would really like to know - how do you know ANYthing about God?
--"Translated and retranslated means just that."
Then that would be another false statement from you.
The NT in English was translated from the Greek.
The NT in French was translated from the Greek.
The NT in Swahili was translated from the Greek.
The OT in English was translated from the Hebrew and a little Aramaic in the book of Daniel.
The OT in Swahili was translated from the Hebrew and a little Aramaic in the book of Daniel. Etc.
You've made this specious mischaracterisation to make it sound like it was Greek, then translated to Latin, then translated to Old German, then translated to Dutch, then translated to English, or something like that. That's just not the case.
Also, koine Greek is not a mystery. People know what it means.
I am unsure why anyone would consider you who don't know whether the NT was originally written in Greek or Latin an authority on translation issues.
I personally have studied it, however, and know that what you have said is not true.
--"Now to the comment about me doing my best frankly that is insulting"
It wasn't me who said it, though - it is God.
If you think it is insulting, it demonstrates that you trust yourself over and above the Word of God.
Instead of admitting I was right and then demanding an apology (which is bizarre), why not repent of your sin before the Savior and beg Him to save you from your many, many sins? I begged Him to save me from my many, many, many sins and because of His mercy He did save me.
He will save you IF YOU REPENT. Getting offended because someone points out what you know to be true about yourself is not repentance. I urge you to stop acting obstinate against God and ask Him to be merciful to you, because you are a sinful man, like everyone, because everyone needs God's mercy.
MM: BK I think you sounded great! As did JT! Standing up to a bully is always hard and speaking for someone who was raped at 14, you men nor does anyone else that has not experienced that horrific experience have any
knowledge of the hell you go through and to imply Rhology that you are offended by someone saying that it is wrong to say rape is wrong or whatever it was you were vomiting out is crap. Rape and abortion are two completely different things...no one not a man or women have the right to tell a women what she should to with her body. You have the right to your opinion but let me be the first to say Rhology you are not always right and just cause you stand on a bible doesn't make it so! We are all sinners....I am sure you will take what I just said and make something completely different twisting it to fit whatever rhetoric you are spewing now....
Me: "Bully"? Did I start this argument?
"Spewing"? Do you really think you are looking at this objectively, MM?
I have zero desire to minimise the horror that is rape. That is in fact why I use it as an example! JT has been telling us that it's not OK to make moral judgments upon others. So HE'S the one who, if one takes his argument consistently, is telling us that we cannot look at, for example, the guy who raped you and say "what you did was wrong".
I'm just trying to help him see that his position is impossible to hold.
Yet rape and abortion DO share many, many things in common. The primary commonality they share is they are both an example of someone in power imposing a violent and horrifying act upon someone who is less powerful, for the purposes of their own gratification.
In short, don't use that argument against someone who sees a true evil and desires to call it evil, when that same argument incapacitates your ability to condemn another evil as evil.
MM: Objectively???? So what since I was sexually assaulted I can't be unbiased but if I had a penis I would be good to go!
You will never see eye to eye with people Rhology cause you can't give any ground!
I'm done now...I only chimed in to cheer on my friends! Have fun living in your glass house...