Had a Facebook conversation with an old acquaintance.
Me: I am involved in an abolitionist society here in Norman, focusing on the total abolition of human abortion, like the abolitionists of slavery who preceded us, who are our intellectual and spiritual ancestors.
We are having a yard sale called the Yard Sale for Heroic Women that will be fed into by dozens of people on 4 June. ALL funds will go directly to help women who are struggling because of an unplanned pregnancy and other complications that arise from that kind of thing. I can't give you a tax write-off for anything donated, but if you have anything and happen to be able to get it to us, you can be assured the money will go to a good cause. Keep us in your prayers!
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JT: So Rhology, can I tell you how to live your life and what you should and shouldnt do? Just curious. Oh and as a man how do you feel you have the right to tell a woman what to do and how to handle a stuation? Oh I have missed arguing with you.... GO!
Me: You do realise it's been about 2 1/2 months?
Is it OK for you to tell me that rape is morally wrong, JT?
As a white man how do you feel you have the right to say that slavery is wrong?
JT: Oh well I just notcied it today! I have the right to my opinion and belief but do I have the right to FORCE it upon everyone else. Do I have the right to make laws that affect other people personally becasue of what I believe? I am not talking about do not kill and do not spped, I am talking about this isnt an issue that affects th population as a whole. So Rhology, as a man you can not and do not have the right to go to the doctor and take care of your illness, or you do not have the right to cut your hair... Oh wait a s man there is really nothing that compares, as a man we can even imagine what it would be like to be raped then have that child. Everyone has different mental ways of handling things and sometimes it is what has to happen. What gives you the right to decise or even give your opinion?
Me: You don't have the right to tell others not to rape?
It wouldn't be right for you to tell others not to rape?
Aren't laws that punish rapists and protect rape victims "laws that affect other people personally because of what someone believes"?
Abortion has killed 53 million babies since 1973. It's safe to say that it DOES affect the population as a whole.
Before I answer your question about why as a man my opinion has validity, I'd like you to answer mine about slavery, please.
JT: Well as a white man I have the right to say slavery is wrong becasue it is, it affecte men, women, and children. You are talking about something that affects women. There is nothing that compares to it. 53 million less mouths, 53 million less termites. There are too many people as there is... You dont have the right to tell them anything you dont know what it is like and the pain they carry.
Me: As a man I have the right to say abortion is wrong because it affects men, women, and children. You are talking about something that affects black people, as a white man.
And if blacks are enslaved, that means we get to feed them less than we whites feed ourselves. We can even starve them if we want to, because we have the power. That's millions of fewer mouths to feed, millions fewer termites. There are too many people as it is. You don't have the right to tell plantation owners anything; you don't know what it is like and the financial burdens they carry.
JT: LOL Stop changing the subject,, slavery isnt even an issue here. Admit it you are bored and like to push your opinion on people. You cant answer it. What is purple pigs flew out of the sky and landed on a car... This isnt what ifs. Your opinon is yours but doesnt mean because people dont agree with you that they are wrong. Im sure you can find something better to do with your time. Or you can answet the question, wht gives you the right?
Me: I am not changing the subject; I am using an analogy to a different social evil, to show you that your arguments, if true, would prevent us from speaking out against slavery as well.
You think rape is wrong. Your opinion is yours but doesn't mean because people don't agree with you that they are wrong. I'm sure you can find something better to do with your time than tell people that rape is wrong. Or you can answer the question, what gives you the right to tell others that rape is wrong?
JT: LOL Abortion and rape are no the same thing. How does rape affect you? How does abortion affect you? Avoidance is a sad sad tool Rhology.
Me: I don't see an answer here. I am answering you on your own terms. I have shown that your arguments work against condemning rape as well. I know they are not the same in every respect, but they are the same insofar as they are moral statements: "Don't rape." "Don't abort babies."
Also, your assumption is that an issue has to "affect someone" before one can make a moral statement about it. Since rape has not affected me, and neither has slavery, does that mean that I have no justification for talking about them?
Also, are you aware of what the genetic fallacy is?
JT: Rhology, WHat gives you the right? You think You can tell a woman how she should live her life, you might as well be raping her. It is an invasion of her. You are invading her personally. Really... you dont see that. Rape is wrong, you are forcing yourself on someone the same way a rapist does. You are just using your opinions and what you think is moral. So ... And Yes I do...
Me: What gives you the right? You think you can tell a man how he should live his life, you might as well be raping him.
It is an invasion of him, invading him personally.
--"Rape is wrong, you are forcing yourself on someone the same way a rapist does."
1) And abortion doesn't "force oneself on someone"? Do you know what happens during an abortion?
2) I didn't see any proof that "forcing oneself on someone" is morally wrong. What is your argument?
3) Aren't you judging others based on your own opinion? Thus if someone disagrees, aren't you "raping" them by forcing yourself on someone? You are just using your opinions and what you think is moral.
JT: Whose choice is it to live their life the way they want? You are telling someone how they should handle their situation... You crack me up. You have no right, I have no right to tell you how to live your life, to tell you haw to handle something. Do I? If so lefts begin, see how much you can take.
JT: Yes I know what happens, Mothers choice... Not YOURS! THis coming from a man by the way who felt the murder of a church patron in front of his congregation was a good thing. Someone who thought he shoulndt be there. You dont have the right Rhology. I know you know that.
Me: Whose choice is it to live their life the way they want, raping women when they feel like it? You are telling someone how they should handle their situation by telling them that rape is wrong.
You have no right, I have no right to tell you how to live your life, to tell you how to handle something, like your desire to rape women. Right?
The rapist's choice, not yours!
--"This coming from a man by the way who felt the murder of a church patron in front of his congregation was a good thing."
Since you apparently don't know what the genetic fallacy is, this is a good example of one.
You don't have the right to tell rapists not to rape, JT. I know you know that.
JT: Rhology. Answer the question or stop. You refuse to answer the question. What gives you the right to tell another human being how to live their life? Answer or stop. Seriously.
Me: How have you not noticed that *you are doing the exact same thing of which you accuse me*?
Unlike you, I will answer: God has communicated with humanity. One of the things He said is: Don't murder other, no mater how weak or small.
Now, if I ask you to tell me what gives YOU the right, we know you can't quote God, so who's left? JT? Why should anyone listen to JT? What authority do you have?
JT: How do you know I cant quote God? What authority does Zeus have? Oh wait Yeah I just compared the too. I hope you find happiness Rhology. You have a lot of sadness and anger.
Me: You're sounding pretty judgmental - how do you know I have lots of sadness and anger? :-)
So, OK - quote God. Where has God spoken in support of your position?
JT: First of all God gives us freewill and only he will judge... Yet you seem to be trying to take that away. So... There ya go. Didnt know you had the inside scoop. Oh you read the Bible that was written and changed by man and assume its correct. God Allows Abortion to exist...
Me: Yes, God allows all sorts of things to exist, like rape. By your logic, rape is permissible, no?
Which parts of the Bible were changed by man? How do you know?
JT: How do you not know, who wrote the bible? Lost in translation? King James Version? Ummmm do I need to continue? I guess the church isnt corrupt and organised religion has no underlying goal. I heard someone say the other day... The God I know doesnt need money, thought it was interesting. Just a side note there. God doesnt need money but the pastor needs a Mercedes.
Me: I don't even know what all of this is supposed to mean. Mostly emotion-driven, ignorant talk. I'm happy to deal in arguments, but you'd have to make one first.
JT: The weak mind insults. Ignortant talk. Ok Rhology. I think you know what Ive been saying but you cant answer so you change the subject and now try and insult. Its ok if You can answer Rhology. Not everyone can back up their beleifs.