Tuesday, November 06, 2012

If you can't join 'em, make weird arguments, Part 5

Continuing from last time...

- My position is that it is wrong and a sin for individuals to kill embryos/fetuses-

And you spend your time defending the availability of such murders.
With friends like you....

-I believe this because studies have shown that states with an abstinence only sex education programs have higher rates of teenage pregnancy and overall birth rates than states with comprehensive sex education.-

That is wrongheaded, though.
Abstinence is 100% successful in preventing unwanted pregnancy, STDs, etc.
The problems start when you STOP ABSTAINING.
By contrast, if you use a condom or something, then you have a, what? Let's be generous - 90% success in preventing unwanted pregnancy, STDs, etc. You start getting lower %s when when you STOP USING CONDOMS.
So you can go with 100% if yes and a lot lower results if no.
Or you can go with 90% if yes and the same lot lower results if no.

- I, on the other hand, think that abortions should not be make illegal,-

You are saying that you don't want murder to be illegal.

- I think abortions are awesome, but because I believe that history shows that prohibitions not only fail to stop the thing that is made illegal but they actually make the problems surrounding that thing worse-

Right, like murder, rape, slavery, and pædophilia. We've already talked about that.

-Have I correctly characterized your position?-

I think so, yes.

- Humans are not in a position to determine what is objectively morally right and wrong.-

We DISCOVER what is objectively morally right and wrong BECAUSE GOD HAS SPOKEN.

-So, just because the Nazis believed that is virtuous to kill Jewish people doesn’t mean that it is objectively right to kill Jews. -

We can know that because God has spoken.
We wouldn't know that is true if God hadn't spoken.

-It is in the best interest of society to make murder and rape illegal because the benefits far outweigh the negatives. It is not in the best interest of society to prohibit abortion because it introduces more problems than it solves.-

You are stumbling at the same place where the pro-aborts stumble.
If the preborn child is a human being, it's the exact same as murder. You presuppose this is not the case. YOu need to explain why.

-Yes, God said do not commit murder. This is our personal command. Where is the command to make abortion illegal?-

Actually, this is a poor and biblically illiterate analogy.
1) The proscription against murder was first given with Cain/Abel, and that didn't turn out well for Cain. And he WAS the society at the time.
2) Genesis 9:6 affirms God's command IN GENERAL. It's not "personal".
3) The MOsaic Law affirms capital punishment for capital crimes - murder. FOr the society.
4) Romans 13 mentions the sword for capital crimes - this is societal as well.

- How do we define poorly run and how many are we talking about?-

Since their buddies in the government protect them from being closely analysed, it's impossible to know for sure. Are you unfamiliar with the dozens of women who get sick/go into septic shock/end up with uterine performations/hemorrhage/die from abortions in the US every year?

-This is why I say that a man killing his wife is not a service—there’s no market demand for spousal homicide. -

If there weren't, there wouldn't be hit men. There'd be no money in it.

-you need to weigh the cost of buying 2 million condoms with the alternative of a potential abortion or the cost helping out a poor family with another kid.-

don't be so cynical. There's far more to "a kid" than just another mouth to feed. There are plenty of poor, and yet many are able to grow into educated, productive citizens. We might as well cull poor people, by this logic. Again your bias is against the very young. You wouldn't want us to go around gassing every fifth poor person, but you don't care if we tear up every third preborn child.

-The cost of a welfare baby is quantifiable and is in the 1,000’s of dollar range per year.-

Yet human beings have a right not to be murdered. The right to be given free condoms is imaginary.

-Nobody’s tax rate is going to be anywhere near 95% because some condoms were handed out.-

You miss the point. Make a consistent argument why we should stop with free condoms. Why not free everything?
BTW, just in case, "that's a slippery slope argument!" is not an answer.

-I’m simply saying that the comparison you’re trying to make between a fetus that is aborted and the suffering of a slave is not quite equal-

And I asked you to prove it. And you couldn't. That was my point.

- The fetus suffers for a moment while the slave suffers for decades.-

And your standard of measurement seems to be nothing more than your mere opinion. I challenge your opinion. Yet how does one measure suffering? It doesn't weigh anything, has no atomic weight, takes up no volume.

-I asked you to decide if you’d rather be a fetus who gets aborted or a slave that gets tortured for decades. -

And that's irrelevant, as I pointed out.

- I’m just surprised that someone would choose to suffer for decades rather than just a moment of suffering. -

Maybe because there's more to life than just suffering?

-They mean evil in the sense of something being harmful or unpleasant. -

Well, then, my suggestion would be to say "harmful or unpleasant" in that case.
But "harmful" usually is a stand-in in people's minds for "evil". That is an assumption that must be substantiated, not asserted and then taken for granted.

-. I don’t understand how you can’t see this. -

And I don't understand how you don't get it either. But I've already explained myself many times.

-Just as you may not be aware that dogmatism can be used for good or evil.-

Of course it can.

-No, actually, I told you that I’m a Christian.-

Your disregard for putting God's commands over your instinctive opinions about prohibitions (even granting for the moment that they're not horribly flawed) shows that Jesus is not your Lord. He is not your Master. If He were, you'd do what He says.

- According to the CIA Fact Book 77% of the US population identifies as some sort of Christian. I think you can see the discrepancy between professing Christians and your stipulation that someone who thinks abortion is justified in some cases is not a Christian.-

What you're missing is that there are many foolish Christians who have not thought these things through out there. But there's a difference between not thinking things through and rejecting the obvious and the obviously-commanded-by-God when it is presented to them. You are among the latter, sadly. Repent.

-I take all of God’s commands seriously, but that doesn’t mean that I think that Hindus should be imprisoned or executed even though God said to have no other gods before us-

True, but that's a category error.

-Just as Jesus wasn’t patting the woman caught in adultery on the back for her adultery I am not patting the woman who gets an abortion on the back-

The abortician doesn't care about your pat on the back. He cares about the $millions your inaction allows him to steal from women whom he has betrayed. Legally.

-What I was saying (or not saying) is that from our dialogue you seem like a very self-righteous and judgmental person and I could picture you among the crowd of people, in the story of the woman caught in adultery, with a rock in your hand. -

B/c I think I am right? You know, you seem like a very self-righteous and judgmental person and I could picture you among the crowd of people, in the story of the woman caught in adultery, with a rock in your hand.

- I’m trying to help you see that prohibitions only make things worse. -

Been over that, Keith. You're leaving tons of challenges on the table, just repeating yourself.

-I am not under the law, I am under grace.-

One who ignores the law shows that he cares neither about law nor about grace. Based on your statements here, you are an idolater and have created your own confession of faith that materially differs from the faith communicated in the Scripture.

1 comment:

Lvka said...

Can people's hearts be changed by force or pressure ? At best they might be changed by God's force, not by human power or legal and political pressure.