Wednesday, March 23, 2011

Conversation with a member of the Church of Christ, chapter 2

Just thought I'd post the rest of what the Church of Christ guys and I discussed, continued from last time.

Jeremy said:
If you want to get "to the heart of the matter", please go to Baptism is not a "tradition". It is a biblical teaching that is biblically supported. This will answer any and every question that you might have. If you don't wish to discuss your beliefs (because this is why you feel the way you do about baptism) then you don't have to.
If you are truly seeking biblical truth, and why I believe what I teach, then read this site and get back with me on additional questions. Your belief on predistenation and total depravity, etc. Is why you take the stance you take concerning baptism. That is why I asked the question. This site will explain far more than I could convey via facebook, in a month. If you are truly interested then do the research. I have reviewed this site and am not sure who even created it, but this is exactly what I believe the Bible teaches.

As far as Ephesians 2:8-10 is concerned, I am curious if your Bible contains James chapter 2 that says faith without works is dead? The Bible does not contradict itself, so there has to be more to the story....please see the site. Thanks.

I am curious as to how we "seek" first the kingdom of God in Matt 6:33 if it is all of God and nothing is required of us....

If we are predistined, then why are you bothering to tell me to repent because you feel I am wrong? According to your teaching, my future is already determined? Or maybe I misunderstand what you and Mark Driscoll teach...?

I replied:


I am not in the habit of repeating myself if I don't have to. There are questions on the table for you related to baptism, faith vs works, and James 2. You have not yet responded to any of them. The next time you write, please answer those questions and we can go from there, but we won't be going anywhere if you don't do so.

As for your bebaptized site, do you really think that I think baptism is a bad thing? Or that it is optional?
No, it is not optional, and it is an amazingly good thing. It is, however, not a pre-requisite for salvation. Even the site itself ( is inconsistent with itself - it says, "Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel." If it is a SIGNAL, then it's not part of the Gospel. And since it says "signal that we have accepted Christ's gospel", it's not part of the Gospel. But you'd have me believe it is part of the Gospel. A work, part of the Gospel. That's the problem. The Gospel is the good news that Christ has saved many apart from their works, solely by His grace. Unfortunately, you don't believe that.
Anyway, the site also appears to be long on out-of-context Bible citations, and short on argument. Unfortunately, it resembles the way you "argue" as well.

You said:
--"Your belief on predistenation and total depravity, etc. Is why you take the stance you take concerning baptism."

You need to make an argument for that, but you didn't. In fact, it's my recognition that the Bible teaches justification by grace ALONE thru faith ALONE that helps me understand that baptism is not, in fact, a pre-req for salvation. I submit all things to the Word of God. One could only wish you'd do the same rather than charging it with error as you are doing.

You said:
--"If we are predistined, then why are you bothering to tell me to repent because you feel I am wrong"

If you had any idea beyond the most basic and most shallow level of what Calvinism teaches, you wouldn't even ask this absurd question. God uses means to accomplish His ends - kinda like when He spoke to create the world, when He uses angels to communicate, when He sends people to accomplish His judgment...the list goes on and on.
Besides, think of your own position. Do you think God knows the future exhaustively? If he doesn't, you're even worse off than I thought and worship a finite god who doesn't even know that he can win the victory. If He does know it, then I'd ask you the same question to show how bad the question is: If the future is already scripted such that God knows it exhaustively, then why are you bothering to tell me to be baptised because you feel I am wrong?

When you respond, respond with the answers to my questions (or at minimum, the original ones surrounding baptism, faith vs works, and James 2), or don't bother writing again.

(to be continued...)

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