Wednesday, March 28, 2007

Deeper into Gnosticism and relativistic morality

Clean cars run better. So do clean minds.

-1 Cor 15:50-52 is an interesting passage that I've discussed often with Preterists and Futurists alike. I'm not certain that the passage talks about our physical bodies changing.
I've already cited numerous psgs to the effect that we come in bodies resembling Christ's. His resurrected body was physical and glorified. He was tangible, He ate fish, He walked, He started a fire and put fish to roast over it, He invited people to touch Him (and they did), etc.
Just like 1 John 1:1 says - "1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have TOUCHED WITH OUR HANDS, concerning the word of life"

-Colossians 2:12 talks of those who were raised with Christ into new life -- but they had not changed, had they? What changed? Their spiritual lives, for sure.
Yes, but that is where our positions are parallel.

-Go to verse 15 and you see that the Book talks of "spiritual rulers and authorities" not physical kings. Interesting that they speak of Spiritual rulers who truly did not rule the Spiritual realm.
Yes, but the thought is not continuous. Who cares?

-no new bodies in this new life.
Right, b/c they come later.

-The word used by Peter when he "saw" him was actually "He appeared to me"
It doesn't matter, for the reasons cited above.

-Even Peter explained that your body must die before it becomes a new body -- the seed dies before the plant comes to grow.
Yes, a new *body*.

-Luke 17:20: One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs
B/c Jesus was preaching to them that the Kingdom had ALREADY come upon them. And this was 30 AD! In what sense? That the "finger of God" was among them, that the Messiah had come.
And geez, you didn't even cite the next verse, which also wrecks your position.

20Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

In numerous places the Pharisees demanded signs from Him and He chastised them for being sinful and refusing the signs He had already shared. That's the way we must take this. But we know from Matt 24 that the sign of the Son will appear, so it's a different kind of coming.

-Luke 17:22 - "The time is coming when you will long to see the day when the Son of Man returns, but you won't see it.
Exactly, b/c He won't return before they have died. I can't believe that
1) you could only cite 2 verses w/in 2 verses of each other to support your position
2) you left out the one in the middle that wrecks your position
3) the 2nd one ALSO wrecks your position.

-But the 1000 years means nothing here, Peter was just explaining God's patience, not actually saying that 1 day = 1000 years.
To God it is. To us, it may seem a long time.

-As for 40 years, that is one generation (Biblically relevant).
You turn the Millennium of Revelation into 40 yrs. I would like to know how you justify it.

-Christ said He would Return in that very generation (40 years).

-Christ returned so long ago and most ignored it because it reduced their power to scare others into paying them to speak to them about scary, scary things.
That's a mighty big accusation to throw at a LOT of people. I wonder if you can back it up.

-Over and over Jesus said "at hand" and "quickly" and "soon."
But you forget the other places where Jesus said things that disagree w/ you. You have selective vision.

-Ezekiel 12's warning was not about the New Covenant and Jesus, it was about God's judgment against those Jews which happened immediately after Ezekiel prophecized it.
You may have a point. But you must interact, then, w/
Ezek 36
22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

-(In Revelation) What specifically would you say has not happened?
I've listed quite a few things you've not responded to yet. I'll not retype them.

-But Christ wasn't talking about Heaven, He was talking about the Kingdom on the earth, which even existed when the Pharisees talked to Him. He told them it existed in their very day but they didn't see it.
Agreed, that's part of the Kingdom (since Messiah came) but you're not dealing w/ Revelation 21-22 still.
The Curse brings death, which brings decay. The Curse is gone in the Eternal Kingdom of Rev 21-22. Things decay NOW. We are not, therefore, in the Eternal Kingdom.
Seriously, you need to start dealing w/ Rev 21-22 soon.

-(RE Is 65:17)The phrase "old Heaven and Earth" meant one thing to the Jews -- their Temple.
Is 65:17-25
17"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
19I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
20No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
21They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.
24Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
I don't see the Temple there. To be 100% sure, modern Jerusalem or Jerusalem in dang near ANY period of history isn't described here.
I see eternity and alot of things that are not present in the earth TODAY.
Your theology doesn't match the Word of God. Repent of your theology.

-Christ was speaking of destroying "the old Heaven and Earth," which was the Temple (which happened!)
John 2:18-22
18So the Jews said to him, "What sign do you show us for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
In a *separate* instance He spoke of destroying the temple in Jerusalem. But the parallel to the body of Christ is w/ His body, not the temple.

-Can you see the Church today? No, because it exists within YOU.
Show me ANY psg of Scr to support that. The ecclesia is always in the NT a GROUP of people gathered to do quite a few things, which I've already told you. Make arguments, not bare assertions.

-It is not a physical building like the Temple was, it is spiritual and seen through good deeds.
It is physical AND spiritual, and it is the gathering of the believers in Jesus.
Where do you get this idea of "seen through good deeds"? What does that mean?

-the Earth will never perish (there's a Bible verse about that, actually).
Show me - I've already cited several which clearly state the earth's days are numbered.

-The Heavenly Kingdom we don't really know what to make of, but we do know it will be glorious beyond belief.
We know all about it from Revelation.
I also know that you won't be there, b/c liars don't go there. And you deny that Jesus has come in the flesh (1 Jn 4) - you are a liar.

-Tithes and offerings? When did Jesus tell people to sell everything and bring Him their proceeds?
Matthew 19:16-23

-Christ wanted us to go out into our daily lives, not to force people to come to us.
Assertion w/o an argument.


-We weren't meant to govern over each other, though.
Romans 13 disagrees w/ you.
And you already explained your disagreement w/ me over that back at the Living Room. You sidestepped the issue when I asked you about WW2 and whether the Holocaust was sinful. You said:
ADAM: Come on, hypocrite, the Holocaust to a Futurist was blessed by God! Look, friend, offer your own thoughts to your support of Romans as bond — Romans 13:

No, I don't believe that and don't have to.
Romans 13 says that the gov't is instituted "for your good" and of its authority to punish wrongdoers. That's dealing w/ the context, sthg which you are unable to do b/c it would destroy your idolatrous theology. evil gov't like the Nazis, I would be obligated to "obey God rather than men" and oppose it b/c it's MURDERING PEOPLE.

The only way you can get around the gov't's institution by God is to claim (absent any support from anywhere near the psg in Romans) that all this stuff means nothing now that the "Kingdom has come". You're a long way off from coherence.

-we definitely don't have to worry about Judgment.
The battle cry of millions of rebels against God for 2 millennia. "Where is the promise of His coming?"

-Through all actions we perform on others, we should think of love first
Why "should" we? Why not simply eat, drink, and be merry, since there is no sin and no judgment? You yourself said this:
ADAM: If I said that Jesus commanded us to do anything, I did it in error. I have never felt that Jesus offered anyone commands to do anything

-He knew where it would lead us -- to the Kingdom where all can serve and love.
Yes, and we're not there yet. It's clear to everyone except you.


1 comment:

Turi said...

Nicely put. Although I'm not sure about the Holocaust... Calvin's view was that unjust princes took power as a means of testing, and perhaps punishing, the people, and as a gift of God they were therefore (at least in some sense) good. The Nazis may have been a rather extreme example, and while I don't think it would be right to submit to the point of helping them murder people, I don't know about the right or duty to oppose them...

Anyhow, that's utterly tangential. But I enjoyed the post.