Monday, April 23, 2007

Back on point

Well, it's clear that I've been having a fair amount on my plate around here recently. Many thanks to those who have commented - I appreciate your time and thoughts and I enjoy the interaction.

If Adam B Dada is still hanging around and if he has time and inclination to continue to interact, I would like to ask him to focus his efforts on responding to 3 questions in particular.

1) Adam makes much of the chronological language of the Scripture, saying "'soon' means a short time, not more than 2000 years", etc. Why then make the "millennium" of Revelation into around 40 years?

2) Since 1 Cor 15 and Philippians 3, not to mention 1 John and the Gospels, make it clear that
A: Christ's resurrected body was physical and glorified, immortal, at the same time
and
B: Our bodies, upon the great Resurrection, will be like His,

how can Adam tell us that the Resurrection has already happened? What happened to the awesome, glorified body?

3) Why have I, a liar (it necessarily follows that I am a liar if Adam is correct) about Jesus, His Parousia, and His Scripture, entered into the eternal Kingdom in light of Revelation 21:22-27?

8 comments:

Norm said...

Rhoblogy, I went here from the Atheist Sucks blog.

I am also a member of www.afterhim.com, as "thedutchman". You might find it a fun and interesting Christian Men's group.

Also, do you mind if I link your blog to mine?

This post doesn't need to be posted, BTW.

Thanks, Norm

Norm said...

Oh, it gets posted automatically.

Anyways, don't worry about it.

A.B. Dada said...

Rhoblogy: Adam makes much of the chronological language of the Scripture, saying "'soon' means a short time, not more than 2000 years", etc. Why then make the "millennium" of Revelation into around 40 years?

I don't believe the millenium to be 40 years, I believe it to be 1000 years. I am still working on the actual timeframe, but 930 BC to 70 AD seems to make total sense to me in many ways, including God's magical 40 years within those 1000 years:

(Note that I believe I might be the first to break it down this way, and no other Preterists as far as I know hold to this part of my theology)

1090BC -- Collapse of Egypt (economically and in power) -- 40 years
1050BC to 1010BC -- King Saul reigns (40 years!)
1010BC to 970BC -- King David reigns (40 years!)
970BC to 930BC -- King Solomon reigns (40 years!)
---[ SATAN BOUND ]
930BC -- Israel divides into tribes, separates into Israel and Judah because of sinful men
30AD -- Christ is crucified and resurrected (40 years gone!)
70AD -- Satan is unbound, Roman Army starts destruction of Israel completely
70AD -- Christ returns (40 years) to vanquish sin/satan (1000 years!)
70AD -- Jews are dispersed, no more power in Israel (Diaspora)
70AD -- Silence of Christian Writers (40 years!)
110AD -- Catholic Church starts (40 years!), no human ruler of church
150AD -- First Bishop rules over Church (40 years!)

Rhoblogy: Since 1 Cor 15 and Philippians 3, not to mention 1 John and the Gospels, make it clear that
A: Christ's resurrected body was physical and glorified, immortal, at the same time
and
B: Our bodies, upon the great Resurrection, will be like His,


A. I don't believe any of those verse say that He was Resurrected physically in any way, shape or form. They did not recognize Him at first, and it does not confirm that they each saw Him completely corporeal. We have no idea what exactly form He took, but I have to delve deeper to confirm how it was. I believe He was visible but unrecognized because of His unique form.

Rhoblogy: What happened to the awesome, glorified body?

As Christ, our glorious bodies exist today in the spiritual realm, which will be important only in the eternal post-mortal sense. The physical is unimportant in an eternal sense.


Rhoblogy: Why have I, a liar (it necessarily follows that I am a liar if Adam is correct) about Jesus, His Parousia, and His Scripture, entered into the eternal Kingdom in light of Revelation 21:22-27?

Since this is in respect to the Kingdom, Christ Himself answers your question -- Luke 17:20-23: "One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?"
Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs.21 You won't be able to say, `Here it is!' or `It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."
22 Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see the day when the Son of Man returns,* but you won't see it.23 People will tell you, `Look, there is the Son of Man,' or `Here he is,' but don't go out and follow them."


The Kingdom came, in their lifetime. Christ vanquished Sin, in their lifetime. The Spiritual realm was free to all to partake of through good works and love to one another -- unlike the Pharisees and the Jews who refused to accept it.

Christ's Church is alive and well, just not in buildings or organizations, but in the lives of the Kings and Stewards of the Believers of the Truth. Christians as a whole are not believers of the truth because they cling to the very same religion that Christ rebelled against in His day.

Rhology said...

First off, I would like to thank you, Adam, for coming back to answer. You have no obligation to continue to debate w/ me, no obligation to submit yourself to what amounts in many ways to a theological interrogation ;-). I appreciate your candor - as I discuss w/ more and more people, I come to appreciate your candor, openness, and fearlessness more and more; you and my friend David Bryan are exceptions to the rule that so few exhibit these characteristics.

DADAI am still working on the actual timeframe, but 930 BC to 70 AD seems to make total sense to me in many ways
Why did you start at 1090 and then 930 BC? It looks pretty arbitrary to me.

DADA(Note that I believe I might be the first to break it down this way, and no other Preterists as far as I know hold to this part of my theology)
Understood.
Does it not raise a big fat red flag in your spirit that you admit that you might be the first person to think this way? I would be quite fearful in your place, and I personally am fearful for you.

DADA970BC to 930BC -- King Solomon reigns (40 years!)
---[ SATAN BOUND ]

Maybe I should know better than to ask this, but what indicates that Satan was bound at that time?


DADA70AD -- Silence of Christian Writers (40 years!)
You mean except for Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, and the Apostle John (whose Revelation is widely dated in the 90s AD), etc?

DADAThey did not recognize Him at first, and it does not confirm that they each saw Him completely corporeal.
I think this is where my argument against you is at its strongest.
We have multiple pieces of info about the nature of Christ's resurrection body and about how ours will be at the Resurrection. You have to deny that the resurrected glorified body could be anythg more or less than the exact same kind of body that humans have had since Creation. It's nonsensical.

Let's look at 1 Cor 15:37-38:

37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

NOTES:
-V.37 Not "the body" that is to be.
-V.38 "God gives it a body".

42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable...47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Compare that w/ Philippians 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Our bodies will be the same as His.

1) 1 John says "what our hands have touched"
2) Thomas reached his hands into the resurrected Christ's hands and side, touching Him
3) the women at the tomb were clinging to Christ, and He told them to stop doing so but to tell His disciples He had raised
4) the burial cloths were not just lying there, but were folded up, having been physically moved
5) Jesus ate a piece of broiled fish, having built a fire

His body was physical.


DADAI believe He was visible but unrecognized because of His unique form.
But it couldn't be that He was recognisable b/c it was the same body, only glorified, could it?

DADAAs Christ, our glorious bodies exist today in the spiritual realm, which will be important only in the eternal post-mortal sense. The physical is unimportant in an eternal sense.
Again, this is Adam talking. I see no reason to agree.

DADAThe Spiritual realm was free to all to partake of through good works and love to one another -- unlike the Pharisees and the Jews who refused to accept it.
And yet I too have refused to accept it, just like the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews, according to your view.
And, again, I want to note that we preach Christ crucified and resurrected. But if you are right, we are liars according to 1 Cor 15:15, and our faith is VAIN.

Rev 21:

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And, Rev 22:15 tells us that liars will not enter in.

So how am I in?

DADAChristians as a whole are not believers of the truth because they cling to the very same religion that Christ rebelled against in His day.
Exactly. But I'm still somehow, mysteriously, in this Kingdom even though the ungodly, those who refuse the message Adam preaches (which I do wholeheartedly reject, BTW), are not going to enter in. Yet in we are.

Peace,
ALAN

A.B. Dada said...

Rhoblogy: I appreciate your candor - as I discuss w/ more and more people, I come to appreciate your candor, openness, and fearlessness more and more; you and my friend David Bryan are exceptions to the rule that so few exhibit these characteristics.

The appreciation flows in both directions -- so many within the Body refuse to discuss differences in belief and doctrine, even though we have Biblically relevancy in the Bereans who did just that. I harbor no resentment towards the modern Evangelical movement (again, I've served over 200 Futurist congregations through my printing co-op), but I do feel so much more can be done in the world today if we would dig deeper into what Christianity is all about.


Rhoblogy: Why did you start at 1090 and then 930 BC? It looks pretty arbitrary to me.

Just to show those 40-year segments. We know that God "likes" 40 years -- it is a perfect generation for God. The surprise that the years fall into this calendar is really shocking, but it could just be a completely coincidence.

Rhoblogy: Does it not raise a big fat red flag in your spirit that you admit that you might be the first person to think this way? I would be quite fearful in your place, and I personally am fearful for you.

Not at all. In my previous political "career" I discovered some notions in politics that were either undiscovered previously, or the dots had never been connected before. Does that make me special? No, it just adds more to the discussion. In terms of Preterism, most if not all of the leaders of the movement from the early church were excommunicated, or killed, for the discussion. We don't know much about the given details of the past 2000 years of the discussions, so it is important to try to discover Truth in ways that God left for us. I don't think I am the first, but I do think I am the most vocal -- using pieces of others' works to enhance and build upon them.


Rhoblogy: Maybe I should know better than to ask this, but what indicates that Satan was bound at that time?

Actually, I think historically there is much evidence of what the Jews were doing that would make God angry. If Satan was the one pulling people to Evil, God has no reason to Judge the people. Instead, Satan was bound during this period so that the ones to Judge were the ones who were Evil themselves -- namely, the Jews of Christ's time.

Look at what happens immediately upon King Solomon's death (930 BC):

Israel splits up into two/three nations (even though God intended Insrael to stay together): 930 BC

Israel is led away from God, and then aligns itself with Rome (The Whore aligning itself with Babylon, as shown in Revelation).

This wasn't Satan pushing Israel to do Evil, this was the people of Israel themselves doing it -- bringing on the pending Judgment.


Rhoblogy: You mean except for Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, and the Apostle John (whose Revelation is widely dated in the 90s AD), etc?

Well, you believe the lies of Scofield then. Revelation could not have been written in 90 AD because it references the Temple still standing -- a Temple which was known to have falled in 70 AD. How could the Temple stand if it was destroyed?

Polycarp - died in 155. I highly doubt that he was really alive and writing between 70AD and 110 AD. There is much debate over his actual lifespan still.

Clement - died in 211. No way was he 150 years old.

Ignatius - He was definitely alive in those years, but he also was against the idea of a bodily resurrection (this is a VERY long discussion, though, going through all his writings).


Rhoblogy: I think this is where my argument against you is at its strongest.
We have multiple pieces of info about the nature of Christ's resurrection body and about how ours will be at the Resurrection. You have to deny that the resurrected glorified body could be anythg more or less than the exact same kind of body that humans have had since Creation. It's nonsensical.


Sorry, the idea of a Rapture and Bodily Resurrection to me is non-sensical. I don't believe the Bible supports it, except where evil men such as Scofield and King James decided it would be easier to control the masses with.

Just because Jesus was seen and felt by His believers does not mean that the body presented was the body to be. They did not see Christ in Heaven, they saw proof of His Resurrection BEFORE He ascended to Heaven to accept the glorious form that God would give Him and all upon their mortal death and resurrection. The mortal body MUST die (seed) before the new form is given (plant). This new form is a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44):

They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Immediately upon Christ's Resurrection, the dead were resurrected into spiritual glorious forms. Those living were transformed from merely mortal beings (who can die) to mortal bodies with immortal spiritual forms that will live forever. It happened in a flash, a blink of an eye -- 1 Cor 15:52. We were not there when it happened, so we can not compare what others felt like before this happened and what they felt like after it happened. What if people did not understand the feeling of love that everyone can feel today? Maybe it didn't exist. What if people could not hear the Spirit as people can today? We don't know the realities of love or the spirit before Christ's Resurrection (other than sexual lust and pan-love). Who knows? Yet the Bible confirms that we won't have a bodily resurrection -- we already had a spiritual transformation, and it happened 2000 years ago.


Rhoblogy: And yet I too have refused to accept it, just like the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews, according to your view.
And, again, I want to note that we preach Christ crucified and resurrected. But if you are right, we are liars according to 1 Cor 15:15, and our faith is VAIN.


No, because 1 Corinthians 15:15 was discussing Pharisees and unbelievers in the first century -- during the time of the Apostolic Church, not our time. Being a liar today has no more grave consequences as it did 2000 years ago. We are not warned today, as they were directly warned by Christ and those that God empowered specifically to bring warning of Judgment, and bring the Good News of how to be saved from that very Judgment, coming in their lives.


Rhoblogy: And, Rev 22:15 tells us that liars will not enter in.

So how am I in?


Because you were born in the New Covenant, the New Age, the perfect world where God's Love is available for all, not just believers or chosen people. We are free -- completely free -- from the power of sin and the wages of death. We are now free to serve cheerfully, knowing God doesn't expect it, but it makes Him happy and pleased. What a wonderful world we have where we are free to love others without feeling like we have to! It is a huge blessing that Christians ignore, en masse.


Rhoblogy: Exactly. But I'm still somehow, mysteriously, in this Kingdom even though the ungodly, those who refuse the message Adam preaches (which I do wholeheartedly reject, BTW), are not going to enter in. Yet in we are.


Ahh, I see your confusion. As most Christians confuse the eternal Kingdom with the Kingdom of God here and now, so do you. We all will end up in the eternal Kingdom -- Christ guaranteed that. Yet not all will see the Kingdom of God. Christ reminded the Pharisees that the Kingdom existed even at that point, yet they refused to see it and acknowledge it. Only in serving others do you receive the Kingdom, only in pure love do you enter in. Liars, and those who use force and fear (most Evangelicals) don't see the Kingdom.

Instead, they pray (wrongfully) to a God who wonders why they're wasting their time doing so. They "plant", wondering why the seed fails to sprout time and again. They wait, wondering why God ignores most of their prayers and their requests. They cry, thinking God will comfort their sadness when God sits on His Throne wondering why they are not smiling and laughing, knowing that God loves them regardless of their actions or thoughts.

God must be very confused with Christians. We are free to be uplifted by the Spirit constantly, and use that blessing to help others. Most don't. They use fear and force to trick others into believing, and the belief is limited and wasted.

The Truth is that Christ and God are done with their work in the mortal realm. The Spirit exists to guide all to Truth, but so many refuse it because they would prefer power on Earth than splendor in Heaven.

Rhology said...

My heart hurts for you.


DADA: we have Biblically relevancy in the Bereans who did just that
Check it again - You may note that, earlier in Acts 17, the Thessalonians were also said to have checked out what Paul said. And they drove him out/permitted him to be driven out of town. The Bereans studied **and accepted** the godly message.
They present a marked difference to your example.

DADA: Just to show those 40-year segments.
But I asked about the millennium. You responded, ISTM, by taking your 70 AD time period and working backwards, and then you had to arbitrarily assume sthg else to get the millennium out of it.
The eisegesis is blinding, as is the ease w/ which I can now see past your appeals to chronological language. You do the same as that of which you accuse me, and it's the crux of your argument!


DADA: In terms of Preterism, most if not all of the leaders of the movement from the early church were excommunicated, or killed, for the discussion.
Excommunicated = good if they were unrepentant. Killed = bad. Hopefully you will recognise I have no ambitions toward anythg like that.

DADA: If Satan was the one pulling people to Evil, God has no reason to Judge the people.
How can you possibly substantiate that? This is an extremely unbiblical concept.
See 2 Sam 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 for exactly that!
Satan 'moved' David to take a census. David succumbs and then is punished. Satan and human beings are jointly responsible for sinful activities.
This is just basic theology.

DADA: Israel splits up into two/three nations (even though God intended Insrael to stay together): 930 BC
And Satan was bound. Clearly this was bad stuff from human beings.

DADA: Israel is led away from God, and then aligns itself with Rome
And Satan was bound. Clearly this was bad stuff from human beings.

DADA: This wasn't Satan pushing Israel to do Evil, this was the people of Israel themselves doing it -- bringing on the pending Judgment.
Yeah, it's obvious to everyone.

DADA: Revelation could not have been written in 90 AD because it references the Temple still standing -- a Temple which was known to have falled in 70 AD. How could the Temple stand if it was destroyed?
B/c Revelation is highly symbolic, as you yourself would admit. What - God is able to bring a vision to a man of something to come but not of something that's already been?


DADA: Ignatius - He was definitely alive in those years, but he also was against the idea of a bodily resurrection (this is a VERY long discussion, though, going through all his writings).
Hogwash.

DADA: the idea of a Rapture and Bodily Resurrection to me is non-sensical. I don't believe the Bible supports it,
Yet you have been shown time after time to be seriously mistaken in areas of biblical exegesis, so this assertion doesn't make any diff to me.


DADA: evil men such as Scofield and King James decided it would be easier to control the masses with.
Riiiiiight.


DADA: Just because Jesus was seen and felt by His believers does not mean that the body presented was the body to be.
A very convenient escape clause.


DADA: The mortal body MUST die (seed) before the new form is given (plant). This new form is a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44)
Yes, a spiritual BODY.

DADA: Immediately upon Christ's Resurrection, the dead were resurrected into spiritual glorious forms.
Still to come, they will be, yes. only the unrighteous dead will not have glorified bodies (Rom 8:29-31).

DADA: Those living were transformed from merely mortal beings (who can die) to mortal bodies with immortal spiritual forms that will live forever.
Which somehow happened w/o anyone noticing it. And this also completely overthrew the whole biblical paradigm so that we do not know how we should live in this body anymore, as we have already seen.

DADA: What if people did not understand the feeling of love that everyone can feel today? Maybe it didn't exist.
And all references to love in the OT and NT are meaningless, are they?
Why then wouldn't we do the logical thing and take EVERYTHING in the OT and NT w/ that same doubt? Maybe the language on which you rely meant sthg totally contrary. You don't know and you can't prove either way.


DADA: No, because 1 Corinthians 15:15 was discussing Pharisees and unbelievers in the first century -- during the time of the Apostolic Church, not our time.
An assertion w/o an argument. Where was that discussed in 1 Cor?

DADA: Being a liar today has no more grave consequences as it did 2000 years ago.
Another example of your antinomian heresy.
Why shouldn't I track you down and murder you messily? (NOTE: I am not going to do that, but just for the sake of argument.)


DADA: Because you were born in the New Covenant, the New Age, the perfect world where God's Love is available for all, not just believers or chosen people.
You're begging the question.
And I don't care if I was BORN here - no liar will enter in.

DADA: As most Christians confuse the eternal Kingdom with the Kingdom of God here and now, so do you.
Ah, it's confusion, is it, to read Revelation and see the quality of the Kingdom described there and how it's brought about, then to look at this world and its history and realise the obvious - we're not there yet?


DADA: We all will end up in the eternal Kingdom -- Christ guaranteed that.
Actually, He guaranteed that "few" enter in but "many" go to destruction. But we've already discussed that, and I think it's been settled.

DADA: They "plant", wondering why the seed fails to sprout time and again.
What a pitifully sad viewpoint you have.


DADA: They wait, wondering why God ignores most of their prayers and their requests.
I don't think that. What blasphemy! "God, you never do what I want You to do! WAAAHHHH!!!"
This is where heresy leads us.

Peace,
ALAN

A.B. Dada said...

Rhoblogy: But I asked about the millennium. You responded, ISTM, by taking your 70 AD time period and working backwards, and then you had to arbitrarily assume sthg else to get the millennium out of it.
The eisegesis is blinding, as is the ease w/ which I can now see past your appeals to chronological language. You do the same as that of which you accuse me, and it's the crux of your argument!


That's not it at all. In fact, it was during my research into discovering what the Millenium might dictate that I ended up at 70 AD, not working from 70 AD. I started with the time after Solomon, and then discovered that the time from Solomon to Jesus was 1000 years. Then I started reading Jewish history during that time frame, and saw how evil the people were who called themselves Godly. I read about how Israel aligned itself with Rome, and then it clicked -- Israel (Whore of Babylon), Rome (Babylon), Revelation, thousand years.



Rhoblogy: Satan 'moved' David to take a census. David succumbs and then is punished. Satan and human beings are jointly responsible for sinful activities.
This is just basic theology.


Satan, the Lord? My Bible shows that the Lord moved David to take the census. THAT is basic theology. It wasn't Satan who did it, it was the Lord. Big difference. David was punished for his evil, which was not Satanical. The Jews after Solomon did all their evil on their own, with Satan bound.


Rhoblogy: And Satan was bound. Clearly this was bad stuff from human beings.

The Bible, and historical Jewish literature, show that it was humans who made these decisions. Nowhere does it talk of Satan pushing them to do anything.

Rhoblogy: B/c Revelation is highly symbolic, as you yourself would admit. What - God is able to bring a vision to a man of something to come but not of something that's already been?


Ridiculous. All the symbolism of Revelation makes sense from a 1st century perspective. If there was a Temple, that isn't symbolic -- that was meaningful because it made sense to 1st century Christians. There is no Temple today. There has been no Temple for 2000 years. God spoke.

Rhoblogy: Hogwash.

This is the problem with the pro-religion anti-Christs such as yourself (the very same that existed during the time of the 1st Century Judgment): you refuse to accept historical documents and only fall back to the Book, which is complete in terms of God's story, but other documents back it up. Ignatius said this:

A Star shone forth in heaven above all that were before It, and Its light was inexpressible, while Its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this Star. It far exceeded them all in brightness, and agitation was felt as to whence this new Spectacle [proceeded]. Hence worldly wisdom became folly; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, God being manifested as a Man, and Man displaying power as God. ...Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

and:

And here, at the manifestation of the Son, magic began to be destroyed, and all bonds were loosed; and the ancient kingdom and the error of evil was destroyed. Henceforward all things were moved together, and the destruction of death was devised, and there was the commencement of that which was perfected in God.

and:

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.

Ignatius was speaking of the Resurrection of the Dead as past! He was speaking of the ending of Sin as in the past. He was speaking of the ending of the Old Covenant in the past. And you refuse to admit it because it makes your life, to this day, fruitless in God's view, and you know it. You wait for God to call, but you ignore that the call will never come -- the Spirit keeps pushing you to spread roots where you are, but where you are doesn't "feel" like the Kingdom you were raised to believe will exist in the future. That is so sad that it is heartbreaking.


Rhoblogy: Yet you have been shown time after time to be seriously mistaken in areas of biblical exegesis, so this assertion doesn't make any diff to me.


Actually, I haven't. It is you who have ignored my old posts, and then moved on weeks later.


Rhoblogy: A very convenient escape clause.


No, a truthful comment. Christ Himself said that more was to come -- yes, He was Resurrected, but He had not ascended yet to accept His new glorious form in the Spirit. He even said this, that He wasn't finished.


Rhoblogy: Yes, a spiritual BODY.

With no connection to a mortal one -- with no similarity. Invisible, incorporeal.

Rhoblogy: Still to come, they will be, yes. only the unrighteous dead will not have glorified bodies (Rom 8:29-31).


Unrighteous dead previous to 70 AD.


Rhoblogy: Which somehow happened w/o anyone noticing it. And this also completely overthrew the whole biblical paradigm so that we do not know how we should live in this body anymore, as we have already seen.


Amen, as Christ said it would be. Read Luke 17:20-21 and understand. It happened, no one saw it. Christ promised it in His lifetime, and He was no liar.


Rhoblogy: Why then wouldn't we do the logical thing and take EVERYTHING in the OT and NT w/ that same doubt? Maybe the language on which you rely meant sthg totally contrary. You don't know and you can't prove either way.

Strawman. Ridiculous premise. We know what we know from the OT, but we don't know everything from the Bible as it pertained to people AFTER 70AD -- we have Josephus and Eusebius and other authors who confirmed that the Judgment was from God. We confirm from them that there were "great armies in the clouds and in heaven" bringing God's Judgment to the Jews. We know from historical evidence that the Temple was destroyed forever and ever, and that Israel lost favor forever and ever. Yet you, and most of the pro-religion faction, ignore that because it makes your life fruitless and wasted.


Rhoblogy: An assertion w/o an argument. Where was that discussed in 1 Cor?

Right here: 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Sosthenes.
2 I am writing to God's church in Corinth, to you who have been called by God to be his own holy people. He made you holy by means of Christ Jesus, just as he did for all people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.


It was written to the Apostolic Church of the 1st Century.


Rhoblogy: Another example of your antinomian heresy.
Why shouldn't I track you down and murder you messily?


You could, and I would not fight back; like the murderers you support in Iraq and in Washington, all are already beyond forgiveness since the transgressions against God ended at the Parousia of Christ in 70 AD.


Rhoblogy: And I don't care if I was BORN here - no liar will enter in.


Sure you should -- no liars in the first century, during the Judgment of Israel, would be saved from that Judgment. But the Kingdom of God today can not be seen or felt by liars and haters, so it is not shocking to me that you and your wife are still waiting for God to act, when He doesn't have to -- you've proven your unworthiness for guidance from the Spirit because the Kingdom is unavailable to you until you give up your anti-Christ doctrine of power and force and fearmongering.


Rhoblogy: Ah, it's confusion, is it, to read Revelation and see the quality of the Kingdom described there and how it's brought about, then to look at this world and its history and realise the obvious - we're not there yet?


We are there -- living in the perfect knowledge that God loves us truly, and loves all truly, and that we can serve as He would serve others -- loving them, not judging them, not scaring them, not using fear or force against them. God reigns with Jesus on the thrones in Heaven, and we are left to steward over His earth until the day our mortal bodies give up our Spirit to live eternally in glory and love.


Rhoblogy: Actually, He guaranteed that "few" enter in but "many" go to destruction. But we've already discussed that, and I think it's been settled.


And few after 70AD did live -- most died. Millions of Jews died, and very very few Christians heeded the warnings and fled to the mountains of Judah. Oh, in your beliefs, when God starts His "future" Judgement, you are fleeing to the mountains of Judah, correct Alan? You're going to see the warnings, and jump on a plane, and fly to Israel, and run to the mountains of Judah, correct?

Pfft.


Rhoblogy: What a pitifully sad viewpoint you have.


Let us compare my viewpoint to Alans:

-----

Dada: All are loved by God, approved to do tasks they were designed to do.

Alan: All are loved, but only some are accepted to be saved from judgment and "hell" (which doesn't exist in the Bible at all). God is quiet sometimes, so people "wait" to "hear" God's "call" to "plant" something, somewhere, which often fails, because people don't listen or God has different plans.

-----

Dada: The Body is all of humanity, each individual born with certain talents. Each can do good for others, if they so choose.

Alan: The Body is only those believers who hold to a strict series of viewpoints that are not proven in the Bible, or are counter to other parts of the Bible. No one really knows what they're supposed to do.

-----

Dada: God's Relevation was about Israel (the Whore of Babylon), the 7 heads of the Beast were 7 real kings of Rome, the churches were real churches of the 1st century.

Alan: In the future, God will really send some scary 7-headed monster that a real woman will ride and Jesus will come riding in on a horse to vanquish this beast, all the while billions of Christians will flee to the mountains of Judah. God will then pull bodies out of the ground and everyone all over the world will see this happen in Jerusalem. A new Temple will be built, only to be destroyed again and it will be replaced by a huge chunk of gold miles in width and height and depth.

-----

Dada: The reason God is silent is because He is done and reigning, leaving the Spirit to guide us.

Alan: God isn't silent, He only talks to a few, so He must not like the rest of the world since they are unworthy.

-----

Who has the sadder viewpoint?


Rhoblogy: I don't think that. What blasphemy! "God, you never do what I want You to do! WAAAHHHH!!!"
This is where heresy leads us.


I am sorry for your life and the place you're in. Ignorance of God's story doesn't really love you less, or anyone else, but it does sadden me that so many Christians have to deal with so many lies taught by organized religion/anti-Christs. As anti-Christs existed during Christ's time, they still do today, and many of them wear the label of "Christian." Too bad none of them know anything more than what other anti-Christs taught them, instead of the full loving God and His Word that is completely, and solid, and forever and ever. He promised never to destroy the world again (Noah), and He won't. Unfortunately, religion has replaced God and Christ as the pure Truth, and that is what is sad.

Some day you will see the Truth, maybe when reading the Book, maybe when praying (in secret as Christ always did), maybe when seeing another "church" fail or when you hear "another calling" to do something for "God." When that happens, your eyes will open to the years of mistruth you were taught, and the years you wasted your own time teaching others mistruths that are based on 2000 years of powerful men seeking more power by pretending to be "of God."

Rhology said...

DADA I started with the time after Solomon,
Why?


DADA Then I started reading Jewish history during that time frame, and saw how evil the people were who called themselves Godly.
It's still arbitrary, suspiciously fitting well chronologically into your arbitrary timeframe.
The people were evil-er during the time of the Judges, during the Rebellion in the desert and the worshiping of the golden calf, and got yet progressively worse after Solomon. Why start w/ Solomon?


DADA My Bible shows that the Lord moved David to take the census. THAT is basic theology.
[[shakes head]] That's why I linked to TWO Bible psgs, Adam. Read them BOTH. Your point is lost - abandon it.


DADA The Bible, and historical Jewish literature, show that it was humans who made these decisions. Nowhere does it talk of Satan pushing them to do anything.
Satan has a clear presence in the Bible as the force of evil, the rebellious angel who has his time to deceive people and who will later be bound and cast into the lake of fire.
Insisting that the Bible always explicitly say that Satan was involved in tempting people to do evil is wrongheaded.


DADA All the symbolism of Revelation makes sense from a 1st century perspective. If there was a Temple, that isn't symbolic -- that was meaningful because it made sense to 1st century Christians.
Oh, so if there's a REAL SOMETHING in Revelation, it's not symbolic anymore?
There were also:
1) people
2) angels
3) God
4) worship in heaven
5) Patmos
6) hills
7) armies

All of these are real things that existed in realtime during John's time, whether before or after 70 AD.

So God is able to bring a vision to a man of something to come but not of something that's already been?

DADA you refuse to accept historical documents and only fall back to the Book,
W/ pride I assert that very thing. When a church father's position is inconsistent w/ the Scripture, I am obligated (and only too happy) to seek the answer in God-breathed Scripture.
It is this statement that reveals clearly how much you respect the Bible - less than it deserves.

Tell me - since the Bible is not your final authority, what possible gain is there for us to continue to discuss what the Bible teaches? What IS your final authority, then?

DADA 1st quote from Ignatius
Look at this:
God being manifested as a Man, and Man displaying power as God.
He's referring to the Incarnation.
Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.
This doesn't match your position at all.
Strike one.


DADA 2nd quote from Ignatius
See here:
And here, at the manifestation of the Son...there was the commencement of that which was perfected in God.
This is the Incarnation.
Strike two.

DADA 3rd quote from Ignatius
How does this rule out my position?
Strike three.

DADA Ignatius was speaking of the Resurrection of the Dead as past!
So?
In a sense it is.


DADA He was speaking of the ending of Sin as in the past. He was speaking of the ending of the Old Covenant in the past.
Indeed.
I can't imagine why he would do that.

DADA Actually, I haven't. It is you who have ignored my old posts, and then moved on weeks later.
Here's the deal, Adam. I write, you answer, I answer back, etc.
When your answers are lame, vacuous, and irrelevant, I don't have a big responsibility to waste more of my and my 2 readers' time responding, just so you'll repeat the process. I prefer to focus the discussion.
And "weeks later" is an exaggeration.

DADA hrist Himself said that more was to come -- yes, He was Resurrected, but He had not ascended yet to accept His new glorious form in the Spirit.
Where did He say that?
(Clue: He didn't. He said that He was going to ascend and did not discuss His body at great length.)

DADA With no connection to a mortal one -- with no similarity. Invisible, incorporeal.
Assertion w/o an argument.


RHOLOGYStill to come, they will be, yes. only the unrighteous dead will not have glorified bodies (Rom 8:29-31).
DADA Unrighteous dead previous to 70 AD.
Assertion w/o an argument.

DADA Read Luke 17:20-21 and understand. It happened, no one saw it. Christ promised it in His lifetime, and He was no liar.
The Luke 17 psg is referring to Christ's First Coming, ie, the fact that He was there w/ them RIGHT NOW. B/c they were constantly demanding "signs".
And as for Christ not being a liar, I agree. And yet you make the millennium 40 yrs... so it's dumb to keep saying that.


DADA Strawman. Ridiculous premise.
Yes, it is ridiculous. But it's no strawman.
You said:
DADA Those living were transformed from merely mortal beings (who can die) to mortal bodies with immortal spiritual forms that will live forever. It happened in a flash, a blink of an eye -- 1 Cor 15:52. We were not there when it happened, so we can not compare what others felt like before this happened and what they felt like after it happened. What if people did not understand the feeling of love that everyone can feel today? Maybe it didn't exist. What if people could not hear the Spirit as people can today? We don't know the realities of love or the spirit before Christ's Resurrection (other than sexual lust and pan-love). Who knows?
It's not my fault you can't keep track of your own argument.

DADA Yet you, and most of the pro-religion faction, ignore that because it makes your life fruitless and wasted.
We've already gone over that too.
Your standard for valuing course of action over another is equivalent to that of the atheist - you assign value to one action over another based on personal preference, not any overarching morality. So why should I listen to your pontifications about 'wasted life'?

DADA Right here: 1 Corinthians 1:1-2
I was referring to when you said that 1 Cor was referring to unrighteous Jews and Pharisees.
That wasn't even a good try.

DADA like the murderers you support in Iraq and in Washington, all are already beyond forgiveness since the transgressions against God ended at the Parousia of Christ in 70 AD.
You keep saying contradictory things.
First, I didn't ask if you would fight back. I asked if it would be sinful.
Second, you are on record a dozen times saying that there is no sin anymore. So who cares if I or anyone else am a murderer?


DADA But the Kingdom of God today can not be seen or felt by liars and haters,
That's not what Revelation says. It says no liar can ENTER IN.


DADA you've proven your unworthiness for guidance from the Spirit because the Kingdom is unavailable to you until you give up your anti-Christ doctrine of power and force and fearmongering
But since that's not sinful, I don't see why I should care.


DADA We are there -- living in the perfect knowledge that God loves us truly, and loves all truly, and that we can serve as He would serve others
Your capacity for self-delusion still amazes me.
Darfur, Nazi Germany, Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, the Soviet gulags, the Armenian massacres, the Dust Bowl, Virginia Tech, Sept 11 - these are all part of God's New Kingdom according to you.
Your modus operandi is just to redefine or ignore horrible events in the world and go back to moralising about what we "should" do.


DADA And few after 70AD did live
Assuming it's talking about 70 AD, b/c your worldview won't let you accept the obvious.

DADA Oh, in your beliefs, when God starts His "future" Judgement, you are fleeing to the mountains of Judah, correct Alan? You're going to see the warnings, and jump on a plane, and fly to Israel, and run to the mountains of Judah, correct?
No, but if I were in Jerusalem I probably would.
But I don't have a strong conviction at this time about my position on eschatology. I think the orthodox Preterist position has a lot of things going for it, but I don't care to make a strong statement one way or the other at this time.


DADA Let us compare my viewpoint to Alans:
See my next post for my comments.

Peace,
ALAN