The Svendsen-Pacwa debate: A Review

Before I begin, please note that I am biased and believe that Sola Scriptura is the correct position to hold. That said...

On 18 May 2007, about 150 people gathered in an Oklahoma City University classroom for a debate between Dr. Eric Svendsen and Fr. Mitchell Pacwa on the subject of Sola Scriptura vs Sola Ecclesia.
I sat w/ my wife near the middle and the moderator explained the format - 20 min opening, 10 min rebuttal, 10 min break, 15 min cross-ex, 15 min closing, 30 min of audience questions (for which you must write down your question and turn it in at the intermission), turn off your cell phones, no applause until after each debater's closing statement.

Fr. Pacwa Opening - 20 min
There are 2 forms of revelation - Scripture and Apostolic Tradition (hereafter, Scr and ApTrad, respectively). The only authoritative tradition is apostolic in origin. Scr is inerrant (2 Tim 3:16-17 tells us it is breathed out by God), and tradition also contains God's revelation, but, curiously, he made a distinction between Trad's inspiration (not?) and Scr's.
Rome's authority is a 3-legged stool of Scr, Trad, and the living voice of the RCC. Using a sports analogy, the Magisterium serves as the "referee" for biblical and traditional interpretation.

Dr. Svendsen Opening - 20 min
Galatians 1:8-9 enjoins upon us the severity of this issue. At stake is the Gospel b/c each debater's respective Gospel is founded upon 2 different authority structures.
2 Tim 3:16-17 tells us what the Scr is good for - teaching, training in righteousness, etc.
Sola Scriptura is not several things: not our sole authority, not the only source of truth for religion or the world, the teaching that oral trad is entirely invalid, particularly during times of inscripturation, the teaching that there are no other subordinate authorities like creeds/confessions, a refusal to appeal to historical data, all psgs of Scr are equally clear, or that all interps of Scr are equally valid.
When we press RCs, however, we do find that Sola Ecclesia is indeed their authority b/c the task of interping Scr and Church history is solely the bailiwick of the Magisterium and no other.
Statement from the RC document declaring the Immaculate Conception - "these teachings have never been added to, never changed," etc.
We can see how SE is indeed the RCC's modus operandi in the way they deal w/ historical data and Scr - when they declare sthg like the Marian dogmas, they do so strictly on the basis of their own authority since no Scriptural or historical data from the 1st at least 400 yrs of the church would support their statements.

Pacwa Rebuttal - 10 min
No, indeed we have a 3-pronged source of authority.
He then took up virtually his entire rebuttal discussing the problem of the Canon of Scr for Protestants.
Which Canon should we hold to? Muratorian fragment's, Irenaeus', Tertullian's, Origen's, etc? They are all different for the NT until the mid 4th century.
Mentions the LXX - the apostles mostly quoted from the LXX in writing the NT. We hold to Scr teaching, as 1 Peter 3 teaches that "baptism now saves you" (omitting the 2nd half of that sentence); we don't add "alone" and "only" into the words of Scr like Luther did.
Interestingly, during his rebuttal, the RCs in the mostly-RC audience started to crank up a bit; several ladies behind my seat would ooh and aah approvingly or quietly say "thank you Jesus, thank you Lord" when Fr. Pacwa would mention the Eucharist or the Blessed Virgin Mary. It sounded charismatic and was a bit strange.

Svendsen Rebuttal - 10 min
Rome is not the only infallible interper in the world trying to get you to submit yourself to its infallibility. EO-xy, LDS, and JWs along w/ most other cults also claim the same. Rome's position means that the individual is not a competent interper of the Scr or of church history
But this means that the indiv is also incapable of looking at the Scr or Ch history and correctly judging, "Hmm, that looks like Rome". We need an infallible interper to tell us which infall interper to follow.
Also, Rome can't give us an infallible list of her infallible teachings either, so they have the same problem.
Which is it - did the Ch preserve the Canon for 3 centuries until it was all correctly put together in the mid-4th century, or was it that the Canonisation process was in complete chaos and disarray? You can't have it both ways.
The "White question" - how did a pious Jew living in the 1st century BC/AD know what the Canon of Scripture was?
For the NT canon, we go by the precedent set by the OT canon - God passively moved His people collectively and gradually to form the Canon, and the Canon was set the moment the last book of the Bible was completed by its author, since the Canon exists in the mind of God 1st and foremost.

Pacwa cross-x Svendsen - 15 min
Pacwa asks about the Canon of the Jews; how are we sure it is what you think it is?
Almost the entire P-X-S section dealt w/ Canon issues and the Apocrypha specifically. I was disappointed by that since I believe it to be a side issue. Related, but side.
Svendsen - it doesn't matter what the Jews thought after Pentecost; they were custodians of the oracles of God before only.
The LXX was often mentioned and its varying contents and implications.
Jerome was mentioned as were Cajetan and Erasmus - what was their Canon? Dr S says that the fact that theirs were different is a clear demonstration of the lack of clarity that Rome gave to the question of Canon in actual practice.

Svendsen cross-x Pacwa - 15 min
As regards Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, which is the Apostolic tradition - that none are saved outside the RCC or the position of Vatican 2, that Prots and EOs are separated brethren and Muslims, Jews, and good atheists are sharers in salvation?
Pacwa answers: invincible ignorance, dvlpmnt of doctrine.
Vat 2 is a Magisterial document - how did it clarify this issue?
Magisterium is a "referee".
Discussion of Raymond Brown and other liberals on Magisterial committees, etc.
Discussion of Irenaeus' belief that Christ was at least 50 yrs old when He died and Augustine's and Basil's belief that facing the east during worship was absolutely crucial to the Gospel.
But this was not legislated by the whole Church.

Pacwa Closing - 15 min
We need the infall interper to prevent splits like between Zwingli and Luther.
I don' t know of any martyrs for facing the east but I know quite a few martyrs for the Scr and the Eucharist (and the RCs in the audience sigh "Oh yes, yes.")
Enchridion Symbolorum is the list of infallible teachings of the RCC.
Also suggests Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma or the Catechism.
Magisterium is the wall to keep us from falling off the cliff but also to protect us from fear of falling off the cliff.
Matthew 16:18 says Peter is the rock.
Mentions abortion, that it is not in the Scripture but in tradition.
Prohibition of birth control is not in the Scr but it is in trad and BC leads to abortion.

Svendsen Closing - 15 min
The nature of ch history.
We can prove the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc, from Scr.
Most distinctive RC dogma is not found in early ch history.
Vat2 teaching vs. Extra Ecclesiam teaching are different - it has changed.
Skepticism over the issue of the Canon will undermine the authority of Scr. Why do that for the sake of traditions?
Equates to "has God really said?"

Audience Questions - 30 min
Thank God they took written questions over the intermission rather than having open mics.
They switched off, each answering one question. I'd've liked to see 30 sec of rebuttal for each question, but oh well.
Not until the 12 minute mark did a question relevant to the debate topic come up. [Sigh]
One notable question: What is the Vatican's position on selling indulgences?
Fr Pacwa acted all confused, like he'd never heard that question before. Answer - "Um, we don't sell indulgences anymore." --Applause--
Note - Fr Peter Stravinskas disagrees. But that must be b/c I'm not RC and am but a fallible interpreter of these things.

Horrified gasp from audience mbrs when Dr Svendsen insists on labeling the RC position as Sola Ecclesia.

The last question for Fr. Pacwa was mine, and it was this: Given the Magisterial authority of Rome, what is the infallible list of infallible teachings of the Roman Catholic church?
Fr. Pacwa did a dance and answered simply the Enchiridion Symbolorum.

Dr. Svendsen clarifies that holding Sola Scriptura is not necessary for salvation. Are Catholics saved? There are Catholic Christians, yes.

Aftermath
I went to talk to Fr. Pacwa, who had quite a few people wanting to meet and greet him.
I identified myself as the asker of the last question and asked him how to spell "Enchiridion". He told me and then I asked him if that is an infallible document. He answered in a roundabout non-responsive sort of way. I then asked him again "But it is it infallible? I ask b/c we see the Canon of Scr as our list of infall teachings; what is your list?" That was my mistake - he latched onto my comparison to Scr and said "Oh but other RC teachings are not inspired, they're just infallible."
I asked, "But what's the functional difference between those 2?"
He said, "Scr stirs the heart; reading other teachings is like reading law or the Constitution."
Since there were other RCs waiting to talk to him, I didn't press the point any further. What a pitiful reply, but I don't guess it surprised me.
Had I the chance over again, I might have been a bit more pugnacious and asked "But we're not talking about what stirs the heart; I agree 100% that Scr stirs the heart better than canon law, believe me! I'm asking about authority - if a command to act/believe a certain way/thing is infallible, the question of whether it's 'inspired' is beside the point. So is it infallible or is it not, this Ench Sym?"

If he had said no, then thank you very much. Now please stop trying to act like that's a good point in your debates and in your talking about Prot-ism.

If he had said yes, then I ask him where the Ench Sym was declared to be infallible. I ask him by whom. I ask him when it was so declared. I also ask him how he knows that list is infallibly defined. Finally, I ask him if the Ench Sym is one of the infallible teachings listed in the infallible Canon of Rome (ie, the Ench Sym). He can't tell me any of that, so then thank you very much. Now please stop trying to act like that's a good point in your debates and in your talking about Prot-ism.


Finally, here are some of my own thoughts about the debate:


+Dr. S brought up a great point:
Which is it - did the Ch preserve the Canon for 3 centuries until it was all correctly put together in the mid-4th century, or was it that the Canonisation process was in complete chaos and disarray? You can't have it both ways.

+Another good point from Dr. S:
Rome's position means that the individual is not a competent interper of the Scr or of church history. But this means that the indiv is also incapable of looking at the Scr or Ch history and correctly judging, "Hmm, that looks like Rome". We need an infallible interper to tell us which infall interper to follow.

+Cajetan and Erasmus - what was their Canon? Dr S says that the fact that theirs were different is a clear demonstration of the lack of clarity that Rome gave to the question of Canon in actual practice. Pacwa's weak response - I'd like to see their statements in context. I doubt this is the 1st time you've heard this, and if you have, that's an area of study you must be prepared in.

+I later got an email from Phil Porvaznik, Roman Catholic e-pologist (who is to be thanked for cleaning up and editing the audio file of the debate for me), who said basically - "Re: the infallible list of infall teachings of the RCC, good point. The Ench Sym (aka "Denzinger") is not infallible, nor is Ott's book. I'll have to think about how to answer that."
Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Some things that could have gone better:
-Dr. S:
"Rome's position means that the individual is not a competent interper of the Scr or of church history"
This should be added: "...which is also an indictment of the clarity of Scripture itself; it's not clear enough for you to understand it."

-Why didn't Dr S bring up the fact that the 1st official infallible Roman Canon of Scr is the Co of Trent?

-From Dr. S' answer to his final audience question:
"Is it a good idea to adopt traditions outside Scripture? I do not believe so." This language needs to be more precise.


Conclusion:
In several ways this debate confirms the contention that Dr. James White often makes - RC apologists remain years behind the current Evangelical answers. Fr. Pacwa's use of his entire rebuttal to deal w/ the Canon while having such a glaring weakness on his own flank on the very same question demonstrates that. Fr. Pacwa avoided the "White question" - how did the Jewish man of 50 BC know the Canon? Fr. Pacwa leaned heavily on "trust me"-style points; did he expect to convince me w/ these arguments, citing the Councils of Carthage and Hippo for the source of the NT and OT Canons when he should know well that the 1st official Roman Catholic Canon of Scr was not before the Council of Trent (16th cent)? Add on that the way that he digressed into pro-life issues in his closing statement; it is pretty obvious to me that he was playing to his crowd.
Fr. Pacwa's describing the Magisterium as "the wall, inside of which we have freedom" is not reassuring, especially when questions like Extra Eccelesiam and the liberalism of JP2 and Vatican2 are brought up.

Fr. Pacwa and other RC apologists would do well to do some updating of their arguments. Well done, Dr. Svendsen. You weren't as sharp as you could've been but you did more than well enough to win this debate by a comfortable margin.

Edit: Dr. Svendsen has posted this debate's video here.