Saturday, October 27, 2012

If you can't join 'em, make weird arguments, Part 2

Continuing from last time...

- but from what I’ve seen here and on the AHA website it appears that you haven’t really thought through the negative consequences of abolishing abortion, or you just don’t care that women could be harmed and that abolition would be hard to implement legally.-
You haven’t read enough, then.
Women won’t be harmed if abortion were abolished. You’re talking about when it’s banished to the darkness, but that’s not our goal.
You ASSERT it would be hard to implement legally, but as I already said and you didn’t comment on, targeting the providers would get us most of the way there.
-We do know that about 68,000 women die around the world from illegal abortions, so obviously making abortion illegal doesn’t completely stop it,-
Illegalising it is only one step. Not the end goal.
-some of the abortions being done are botched. -
Plenty of legal abortions in for-real “clinics” are botched too. Don’t forget that.
-We also know that similar prohibitions such as the ones against alcohol and drugs have failed and exacerbated the problems they were trying to eliminate.-
How about the prohibitions against rape and murder?
- I presume by using birth control, until they were in their 30’s and 40’s because they were so busy going to school and starting their careers-
A much lesser evil than murdering children in droves, I have to point out.
-This brings me back to the point that we should concentrate on preventing unwanted births through education and making sure that contraceptives are available for those who need them.-
1) Yes, let’s prevent unwanted pregnancies.
2) Yes, let’s educate.
3) Better yet, let’s share the Gospel wide so people will have hearts transformed by Jesus to love holiness.
4) Anyone can buy contraceptives. Too often this is code language for “let’s make sure the gov’t can tax the populace heavily, waste most of its revenues and then give the rest so SOME people can get free condoms and the pill”. The pill is not justifiable. Condoms are fine; let people buy them themselves.

-Secondly, I never said that a certain number of illegal abortion clinics exist.-
You quite missed my point.
-You keep on bringing up these irrelevant comparisons to slavery, rape and murder.-
We have explained why the comparisons are valid and very relevant. Your mere handwaving doesn’t get you anywhere.
-y. A better comparison would be to Prohibition or the War on Drugs. -
Why? Make an argument.
Why is prohibition of alcohol a better comparison to murder than murder is to murder?
-My guess is that it’s pretty widespread-
And so you have conceded your whole point. Appreciated.
-I know that you’re embracing the symbolism of the Abolitionist Movement. You are the abolitionists and the slaves are the unborn.-
Sloppy. You haven’t read very closely.
- I think that the degree that slaves suffered and the unborn suffer are not the same because the slaves suffered decades of beatings, mutilations, degradation; hard work; and separation from families while a fetus would experience a moment of pain before dying-
Right, right, right – it’s far better to be dead than to suffer in this life.
Yet another naked assertion. Where’s the argument?
-The odds are abortions will continue when they’re illegal–to think otherwise is just naïve.-
Which misses the point, again, and doesn’t interact with already-given rebuttals.
-Despite what you may think I’m no fan of abortions—I see them as an unfortunate but necessary evil.-
No evil is necessary.
On what are you setting your hope?
-This debate is not easy on me because I’m used to debating atheists not fellow Christians.-
If you think murdering babies is justifiable, I don’t see any good reason to think you’re a “fellow” Christian. Further, you’re actually opposing abolition. Probably you’re just another self-worshiping idolater, who has made up a religion to suit yourself.
- if you make it so that a women who is seeking an abortion has no choice but to get a less safe illegal home abortion and she dies then I think her death is on you. You willingly withheld a procedure that could have saved her life.-
Are you talking about the infinitessimally small % of total procedures that result in the death of the preborn baby? If not, what are you referring to; what are we “withholding”?
You might as well say that since rape is illegal, now rapists have to put their lives at risk to rape someone; if a rapist dies because a women shoots him or a police officer shoots him, that death is on you.
It’s foolish.
-Do you even care about the life of the mother? -
Yes, and if you’d read any significant portion of our material, you’d know that.
-This last comment of yours leads me to believe that you don’t-
That’s because you’re being unfair and are speaking out of ignorance.
-What if the woman who is risking her life by desperately seeking an illegal abortion is a friend or family member? What if she is your daughter? I don’t understand how you can so callously just say, “Oh well, she had it coming. At least we don’t have to throw her in prison now,” if she dies.-
Maybe she shouldn’t seek out the abortion. You’re acting like she has no choice, but that’s just untrue.
-A woman in this state is probably scared, confused and young.-
And this culture of death has taught her she can ‘get rid’ of the ‘problem’ thru murdering her innocent child.
We aim to change all of that.
-Shouldn’t we be like Jesus and say to her, “I don’t condemn you. Go forth and sin no more”? Shouldn’t we be the ones to refrain from stoning her?-
What in the world are you talking about? Seems like the Emotions took over the steering wheel from the Brain in these last few sentences.

No comments: