- Rho Logy ? I'm not trolling. It's quite uncharitable of you to make that accusation, since you have no evidence.
And it's precisely those in sin who need others to reach out to them to plead with them to repent. Dr Brown should repent of his association with Hinn. He claimed ignorance of Hinn's history and teaching, and also claims he's read Strange Fire.
Dr Brown can't have both.
- Rho Logy \\By going on his show and reaching out to millions?\\
You know, since you're fine with Dr Brown lending his credibility to men who are clearly and obviously heretical false teachers who are in the religious business for their own material gain, and when called on it willing to defend his actions with an appeal to ignorance about their teachings, when is he going to be inviting Vissarion on his show to talk about evangelism in Russia, the fall of the USSR, living for God while in a harsh environment, and what he thinks of Israel?
- Rho Logy Fruit, the fact that he is a heretic, a false teacher, and a man obsessed with lies, fame, money, and fleecing the poor.
Dude, this is BENNY HINN we're talking about. I can't believe you're defending him.
Next you'll be telling me that Mormons are brothers in Christ too since they say "Jesus" and "Holy Ghost".
- Rho Logy It's easy. Because no message of repentance appears on http://www.bennyhinn.org/
Because he retains his wealth and his Gulfstream aircraft.
Are you even familiar with the biblical concept of a wolf in SHEEP's clothing? there's a reason why false teachers look like sheep and shepherds. There's a reason why Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
- Scott Frederick Lot's of pastors have extravagant things they own. Sorry, I don't follow Benny Hinn's ministry either. I have many better things to do. I think it's a pretty amazing thing that I heard God did with his marriage, reconciling him to his wife. Now that I visited his site, first time ever BTW, his repentance over his failed marriage after 30 years and remarriage to his wife is quite a good fruit, wouldn't you admit?
- Rho Logy Ummmmmm his failed marriage and his affair with Paula white is the least of his problems. I don't even know what to say. You are defending a charlatan and a fraud who deceived people by the hundreds for their money and lives a very lavish lifestyle off of the profit of his trickery. Your willful naïveté is disturbing to say the least.
He about Vissarion, Scott?
- Matt El Dominicano Baroni "And white and Hinn were photographed holding hands. Alone. In Rome."
You mean like this? >>>
- Rho Logy No no, King is a garden-variety lost person. Hinn is INSIDE the church, a wolf who has come in to spy out the freedom we have in Christ.
Y'all seriously need to look again at the NT. Notice how wolves, heretics are treated differently than those outside the church. It's a totally different situation.
And if it were Photoshopped, I'm sure Hinn and White sued for libel and won, right? Oh, wait...
And the photo was taken from some distance away. They WERE alone. You guys are cracking me up. If I were Hinn, I'd just want you to be quiet, for your defenses are pitiful.
- Scott Frederick I didn't read his book/thesis, An Examination and Critique of the Life, Ministry, and Theology of Healing Evangelist Benny Hinn, but I did read the article. But since I don't follow Hinn, nor have friends that do, I am not going to take the time to verify and research what Peters has claimed. And just because someone says something about another person does not mean I know it to be true, or not.
But what little I know of Hinn, mainly the we're little gods 9 parts to the godhead controversy/error from back in the early 90s, Hinn changed his teachings and corrected his bad theology. So for Justin to say that Hinn teaches the standard WoF stuff to include the 'little gods' stuff, and since Justin spent so much of his life devoted to Benny Hinn's ministry and should know that he doesn't 'teach' that, I'm surprised that Justin doesn't deal with the real errors, but piles old beliefs/teachings on the fire of error.
People's beliefs change over time, through experience and knowledge of the Word. Most people, like me, become even more reformed/fundamentalist over time. We all have absolutely wrong stuff we have said/believed early on in our walk.
I'm just surprised at the vitriol thrown at the man. If he's the fake, where is the real evangelist to contrast and reach millions?
- Rho Logy \\I am not going to take the time to verify and research what Peters has claimed\\
Well, then I wonder why you're even talking to me about this. You're totally ignorant of the issue at hand.
That's not a slam. I'm not ripping you. I'm pointing out a fact - you are ignorant. So why continue?
\\Hinn changed his teachings and corrected his bad theology.\\
He said he was sorry for THAT ONE PROBLEM, leaving his bread and butter, his staple errors, unrepented of.
He continues with the "little gods" nonsense, and he continues to teach WoF heresy, and he continues to fleece people out of their money.
\\If he's the fake, where is the real evangelist to contrast and reach millions?\\
Hinn has reached millions with heresy. That's no prize.
And where is the Scriptural promise that every generation will have one individual evangelist reach millions? I don't even understand your question. Again you demonstrate you're committed to Hinn first and the truth second.
- Scott Frederick And quite frankly Justin cannot get beyond the guilt by association error in his argument. It's not that Benny is a false teacher, a heretic, etc and is really bad. It's that this one man and one ministry supposedly represents the millions of charismatics/pentecostals/continuationists around the world. That's hogwash and simply intellectual dishonesty.
- Rho Logy \\It's not that Benny is a false teacher, a heretic, etc and is really bad.\\
Actually, it IS that. He IS all of those things.
And so, why did Dr Brown go onto this man's show without clearly calling him to repentance? It's not even close to the same as going on Larry King. This man is INSIDE the church. He's deceiving millions.
\\ It's that this one man and one ministry supposedly represents the millions of charismatics/pentecostals/continuationists around the world. \\
That is a different point that builds on the first. And I'm inclined to agree. I have found that the continuationists who realise him for what he is and are willing to say anything about him are few and far between. Police your own! Don't argue with me on FB and defend the indefensible! Call your friends and church to repent of not calling Hinn to repent!
- Scott Frederick Well it would be nice if you used your name instead of a pseudonym. / You're totally ignorant of the issue at hand./
Really, why become acquainted with the false teachings of the likes of Osteen, Hinn, Jakes, Phelps, et al, when you know of no one, no friend acquaintance, etc that espouses their 'beliefs' and you have your own little sphere of influence filled with the lost, the weak in the faith, those in error, etc? The time is better devoted to the Word, to prayer, and to practical ministry.
/Hinn changed/ Yes, we agree he did. We all have doctrinal/teaching/belief errors in our walk. Again, to say he teaches that, when he does not..... isn't that dishonest, and maybe even a lie?
/No scriptural promise/ Nope, no need for someone to reach the masses. But where's the real on the 10,000 or less range, for example? When you have the fake, who do you point to for the real? We can hide behind our doctrines and traditions, but who's out there doing what the Bible says and evangelizing the lost? Do the lost hear a clear Gospel message of salvation in Hinn's crusades, or not?
- Rho Logy \\why become acquainted with the false teachings of the likes of Osteen, Hinn, Jakes, Phelps, et al, when you know of no one, no friend acquaintance, etc that espouses their 'beliefs'\\
1) If you don't want to, that's fine. But don't come on here and try to correct someone who HAS studied that issue.
2) Really? You don't know ANYONE who has WoF-flavored beliefs? I find that incredibly difficult to believe, since it is extremely widespread in the American church. You ought to familiarise yourself with the issues, then take a fresh look at it. What you find will almost certainly surprise you, in a bad way.
\\The time is better devoted to the Word, to prayer, and to practical ministry.\\
1) This IS practical.
2) Lead the way; make that your last reply here.
\\to say he teaches that, when he does not..... isn't that dishonest, and maybe even a lie?\\
Teaches what? Be specific. We talked about numerous things in that last exchange.
\\But where's the real on the 10,000 or less range, for example?\\
Ray Comfort. QED.
\\When you have the fake, who do you point to for the real?\\
The Scripture. I don't need any man. I have God.
\\We can hide behind our doctrines and traditions\\
That's what you're doing, in your dogged defense of a man you've admitted you haven't studied.
\\who's out there doing what the Bible says and evangelizing the lost? \\
\\ Do the lost hear a clear Gospel message of salvation in Hinn's crusades, or not?\\
No, they do not hear a clear Gospel message there. I have been to one and followed his ministry for years.
- Scott Frederick So again, Dr Brown goes where you and those who complain about Benny Hinn, rightly or wrongly, will not. You and they have no hope of reaching that man, and will never have the stage to reach that many people with the truth. Dr Brown uses controversy, homosexual issues, Jewish objections to Jesus, Benny Hinn, that defrocked Methodist minister who married his son to another man, etc. to provoke dialog so that we can discuss our differences, agree to disagree where applicable, look at the basic doctrines/teachings of Christianity that we all believe in and uphold, and join together to reach a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ. There are Christians who are following those in error. We need to reach out to them in a respectful non-condescending way using the Word to bring them into the Truth. Like it or not, Dr Brown reached millions of those who choose to watch Hinn.
Again, you assume that because all of these churches aren't basically a justin peters ministry clone that they agree with these false teachers, etc. When an error creeps into the local body the leadership should address it. And sound Biblical teachings and discipleship will prevent most of the errors as the people will hear the new(false teaching) and go to the Scripture and see if it is so.
The only place I hear about the likes of Hinn is on the internet, and years ago on TV I believe.
- Rho Logy No no, Brown should've gone to Hinn. And called him to repent.
He didn't do the latter. That's the problem. Vissarion.
Hinn is not just some schmo. He is one of the leading wolves in the church today. A false prophet and teacher. A heretic. This is not hard.
\\ Like it or not, Dr Brown reached millions of those who choose to watch Hinn. \\
Yeah, he reached out and demonstrated infidelity to the Bible in doing so. Great job.
\\you assume that because all of these churches aren't basically a justin peters ministry clone that they agree with these false teachers, etc. \\
That is false, and you assume what I assume, which is hypocritical.
\\When an error creeps into the local body the leadership should address it\\
I've been waiting for that for decades. Of course they SHOULD. But when they DON'T, don't get mad at me for pointing it out.
\\The only place I hear about the likes of Hinn is on the internet, and years ago on TV I believe.\\
There's more to this than just Hinn. If you'd open your eyes, you might see that.
- Scott Frederick Again, if Justin is saying that a minister 'Teaches all of the standard Word-Faith doctrines such as Positive Confession, the Little gods doctrine, the Spiritual Death of Jesus (SDJ) doctrine, and guaranteed health and wealth for the believer' when it's shown that he does not, that really brings Justin's other arguments into scrutiny. You cannot be critical and be making basic 101 level mistakes, as it takes away from your credibility. You have to be above the fray, and be straightforward with the facts. To give another example, it would be wrong to continue to say 'hinn's divorced his wife..... ah ha, he's a bad guy' and continue to say that and neglect to mention he's been reconciled to his wife and remarried. It is making a non sequitur argument.
/Ray Comfort/Kurt/Todd/Et al. Good stuff. I've been using their materials for years... still working on the boxes of counterfeit original million dollar tracts.....Simply put Ray's teachings basically does away with the sinners' prayer(public) and altar calls in the church for sinners, no?
/ where do you point...... there is value in some of the 'seeker friendly' types of churches as the constant bombardment of the enemy, media, schools etc against the relevance of God/church in society. As you so easily demonstrate, judgmentalism in the church is rampant and turns many away from hearing the Truth.
/So you're telling me that if I take the time to google it and watch a few videos of his Gospel presentation that he doesn't present a clear Gospel message? Take a look at https://www.google.com/search?q=benny+hinn+gospel+preaching Which video in the list would be a bad Gospel presentation, in your opinion?
/dogged defense.. That's funny right there, as I really don't care for Hinn at all. We should just be honest with the information, and check it out, without assuming/condemning apart from verification first. I'm looking at the claims from both sides without prejudice. But it certainly seems that Peters and those who oppose Hinn are prejudiced against anyone who dares come near him. That's wrong, IMO. It's like you can't say all the tele-evangelists are the same, for example. They're not. But then, I haven't watched TV since the mid 90s so I have no clue who's on, except through controversies and friends.
As another example to add fuel to your Paula claims, Randy White was trying to make a real estate fortune while he and Paula 'pastored' church without walls in Tampa, apparently a WoF church. Tampa Tribune articles. Never have agreed with the spinoff teachings of WoF, basically the modern WoF churches. The three times I heard Hagin myself was during a seminar week and he was basic fundamental truths. Studying the Word, speaking the Word, and becoming prosperous so that you can fund the Gospel around the world was teachings to the WoF churches credit, early on. Once it changed to God's word wants you to be rich/prosperous, but not as a blessing to be a conduit for missions, the rot infected the whole movement.
Again we agree on much, including AHA.
- Rho Logy \\if Justin is saying that a minister 'Teaches all of the standard Word-Faith doctrines such as Positive Confession, the Little gods doctrine, the Spiritual Death of Jesus (SDJ) doctrine, and guaranteed health and wealth for the believer' when it's shown that he does not\\
Hinn does, though, and has not repented.
\\Ray's teachings basically does away with the sinners' prayer(public) and altar calls in the church for sinners, no?\\
That's only a minor part of his methodology.
\\judgmentalism in the church is rampant and turns many away from hearing the Truth\\
1) I'm not judgmentAL. I'm passing judgment on a heretical false teacher, like Jesus told me to do in Matthew 7, 2 Peter, and Jude.
2) Lack of discernment leads many astray WITHIN the church, which is even worse.
\\I'm looking at the claims from both sides without prejudice\\
You can assert that, but I think it's clear to anyone reading this conversation that you're fudging a bit. You've clearly been defending Hinn like crazy; even when you said you were ignorant you continued to defend him. Come to your senses!
\\I haven't watched TV since the mid 90s so I have no clue who's on, except through controversies and friends. \\
And so you're talking to me about this as if you have any information...why?
\\Randy White was trying to make a real estate fortune while he and Paula 'pastored' church without walls in Tampa, apparently a WoF church\\
WoF people are well-known for loving mammon.
And a woman can't be a pastor.
\\ Studying the Word, speaking the Word, and becoming prosperous so that you can fund the Gospel around the world was teachings to the WoF churches credit\\
That third part, right there.
And that's not how it began. It's well documented how WoF began; it was the speaking stuff into existence stuff.
Glad to hear we agree on AHA. I just pray that you'll start using your discernment muscles. Is God going to honor those who don't care enough about His church to desire to purify it?
I watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4U5_b4Y_Qo
Very, very little about sin. Very little about the cross. He says Jesus saves us from Satan's domain. Nothing about repentance. Nothing about the cross, or the resurrection.
"You legally belong to God; Satan has no legal right to touch you...for He gave you power" - that is not the Gospel, and it's more ear-tickling.
My friend, please. You need to get serious about the law and the Gospel. The law means something, and it has multiple uses. You need to get serious about truth and get hard on those who have crept in to corrupt the very Body of Christ.
- Rho Logy But Scott, you told me above that Hinn preaches the Gospel. And in that video, he did a poor job. Why assume he knows the Gospel, even?
If he's not someone you'd watch/follow, what do you think (now) of Dr Brown's appearing on his show and talking about issues of tertiary importance, ignoring the hereticelephant in the room?
Thursday, January 09, 2014
Benny Hinn oughta send them a check
Shrug, I don't know. Maybe he already does.