Friday, March 29, 2013

On Marcus Pittman and vendettas


Recent events have led me to ponder the following questions: What good is it to say that one is submitted to a local church's leadership if one persistently speaks folly and heaps shame upon that church? What good is actually being submitted to a local church's leadership if that church never helps the submitted person see where he is saying foolish things in widely public arenas?

That's where I am with regard to Marcus Pittman of Crown Rights Media, an organisation that I (and we at Abolish Human Abortion) have wanted to like and with whom I (and we at A//∀) have wanted to work closely. Yet Pittman and his compatriot(s) have been busily engaged in driving us away from them.

This latest example has left me shaking my head more than most of the other examples I've seen.

I had been in a conversation on the Facebook page of the director of the Abolitionist Society of Oklahoma's director, T. Russell Hunter, with an inquirer who was asking me about ecclesiology and whether an individual Christian would ever be in the right if s/he were to call out sin in another group of people who regularly meet in a building on which the sign includes the word "church".

As part of my answer, I told her this:

We don't need to be ordained by some ecclesiastical body, touched on the shoulder with the Scepter of Ecclesiastical Approval, to do what Jesus said.
We need to just go ahead and do what Jesus said.
This is, as far as I'm concerned, a no-brainer. Who seriously thinks that no Christian should do anything until his pastor tells him? Are we to demonstrate no initiative of our own before loving our neighbor? Does Marcus Pittman phone his presbytery to ask them whether he should share the Gospel with Joe Doe on the street (and I'm talking about when he doesn't have a HD camera with him)?

Yet Pittman, though having long since left off any participation in that thread, was waiting with bated breath for someone to say something he could sink his claws into. And in my comment, for whatever reason, he found it!

What the Anti-Church people say "We don't need to be ordained by some ecclesiastical body, touched on the shoulder with the Scepter of Ecclesiastical Approval, to do what Jesus said. We need to just go ahead and do what Jesus said."
What Jesus Said - "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

This is simply laughable.
I am good terms with every church I have ever attended. I recently left one church to join another immediately, and my current church received with joy my family and me into membership 4 weeks ago. My church has two elders.
Yes, I am a credobaptist and thus am a member of a Baptist church. I don't see Pittman ripping Dr. James White with the same type of sloganeering and pathetic fault-finding just because they differ in ecclesiology.

No, this isn't about ecclesiology at all. This is about Pittman (and to some extent his associates) doing what they can to find fault with anyone associated with Abolish Human Abortion.


I entirely and wholeheartedly reject and disaffirm the label "Anti-Church". How dare Pittman say this about a brother. This is a serious accusation of serious sin. One would hope Pittman would have some evidence. Alas, he has none.


Obviously in principle I agree 100% that "We need to just go ahead and do what Jesus said" includes joining and submitting oneself to a church with elder government. Pittman can (and, apparently, just might!) search in vain among the millions of words I've written for any indication I disagree with that.

That to which I object is the Rome-flavored idea that somehow we must await permission from our church's elders before obeying what the Scripture says.
Would Pittman's church's elders really prefer that he ding-dong them before doing good works? Do they need to be the source of every idea for doing good works in which anyone in their congregation engages? Or would they prefer that the congregants take it upon themselves to obey the Scripture with joy, of their own volition? Isn't the job of an elder tough enough without having to write an encyclical granting the faithful the right to obey Jesus every time a new specific possibility pops up?

There is nothing wrong with what I said. If Pittman were engaging his obviously prodigious intellect in fairness, he would see that and assent to it, but he is not inclined to be fair these days, not to brethren against whom he is an acting as an enemy. It is truly sad to see, and I am grieved.


Wednesday, March 27, 2013

Ed Dingess, the work of the church, and the Gospel


A recent article from one Ed Dingess grants us at Abolish Human Abortion excellent opportunities for clarification of our own position and convictions, and we'd like to take the time to comment at length on Dr. Dingess' statements.

First, though, we'd like to ask anyone who has not read our recent article The "Great Commission" Without Abolition Is Dead to please do so, then return here to read on.

It is unfortunate that Dr. Dingess begins with a very poor understanding of who we are and what we do. The entirety of his article, in fact, seems to take as its reference point no more than two or three pages from our website. We have put out a great deal more material than just that one website, and it would behoove someone who desires to be a thoughtful critic of ours to do a bit more research than that.

That said, this statement:
whose stated purpose is not necessarily to abolish all human abortion, but rather to “instigate,” and to “inspire” pro-life individuals to become more “assertive” and “actively” involved in abolishing abortion
most definitely disturbs us, for it is not what we have intended to communicate. And honestly, re-reading the page to which Dr. Dingess refers, I can sort of see what he means. To that end, plans are in motion to revise the material on our website.
For any reader to come away from our site with the notion that, for example,
There is no necessary connection between this coalition and the Church of Jesus Christ other than the fact that the Church condemns abortion as murder and so too does AHA.
or the notion that
It is telling that the gospel is not referenced until you scroll down nearly to the end of this page
is, like I said, disturbing.

So, we'd like to thank Dr. Dingess for reminding us to reflect our thinking more clearly on our website. Over the past year, we have grown in our understanding of what needs to be done, who we are in relation to this issue, and what really matters. The Gospel has always been central, but thankfully the Lord has been leading us to understand even better the paramount importance of it, so that Jesus take center stage in everything we do and say. Where we have failed to exalt Jesus in any way, we repent here, now, publicly, of it, and we are grateful for the assistance.

We are, after all, fallible human beings.

Having said all that, Dr. Dingess could have gotten a better understanding about us by consuming more material than a few webpages. There are our Daily Abolitionist videos, our videos from the What Must Be Done conference, our blog, especially recent interactions with Roman Catholics and aborticians. So Dr. Dingess would do well to expand his research before commenting on a group like us in this way.

Now, I'd like to move on to topical treatments of parts of Dr. Dingess' commentary.

ABOLITION AND THE CHURCH OF JESUS
Dr. Dingess is entirely incorrect to say that "(t)here is no necessary connection between this coalition and the Church of Jesus Christ". Abolition is a work of the church of Jesus, the invisible church, for it is a work that God demands from each human being, and those who are born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God will unfailingly desire to do the will of God during our lives.

Of the Two Great Commandments, one is "Love your neighbor as yourself." Right now in this country, 3500 of the smallest and weakest of our neighbors are being murdered every day. If Dr. Dingess or anyone else can find a greater destruction to our neighbor than abortion in the culture to which we have access, we'd certainly like to know about it, that we may turn our attention to abolishing it.
We'd like to ask Dr. Dingess to consider carefully what sort of oversight men like William Wilberforce, or William Lloyd Garrison, had in their pursuits of abolition. Who will stand up for the weakest of our neighbors? Who loves light rather than darkness, so as to expend one's energy, time, resources, etc for people we don't even know? Will this be the work of unregenerate people who love darkness rather than light? No! Just as it was the followers of Jesus who rose up in 2nd century Rome to rescue unwanted babies left on riverbanks and garbage heaps and who rose up in the 18th and 19th centuries to abolish the systematic oppression of people with dark brown skin, once again His followers in the invisible church are rising up to abolish this grossest of violations against love of neighbor in our culture.
The invisible church is just as real as the visible church, the visible church being a mix of partly members of the invisible church and, virtually always, enemies of God. Both churches are real, and both are important. We strive to neglect neither.

Abolitionists, as obedient to all that the Scripture teaches and reveals, are enjoined to be members of a local body of believers. We are men and women under authority, and we are glad to submit ourselves to the authorities that God puts into place.  Yet we fail to see in Scripture where every "ministry" must be under the "authority" of "the pastor" and elders of a local church. We agree with this in the sense that it is good for all Christians to be under the spiritual oversight of godly elders.  But does this mean that any work that a Christian does should be part of an officially-sanctioned program run by an institutional church? Is it not true, rather, that pastors should both desire and exhort the members of their churches to be actively seeking to serve Christ in the world, and not passively waiting for some governing body to issue an edict of what we are supposed to do?

Who is the authority over the work of AHA? It is simply Jesus the Messiah, the King of the universe and of His Church. If we are not being led by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, then we have no business being involved in this work. Jesus alone will direct the building and advancement of His Kingdom. Any mere human effort to add to what Jesus is doing will simply result in wood, hay, and stubble to be burned up in the Final Judgment. We desire that Jesus be both the positional as well as the functional head of our groups and our work.
Dr. Dingess (as well as many, many others who oppose us) functionally conflate the institutional visible church with the true Body and Bride of Christ. The work of abolition is a work of the latter. And the latter is one in Christ, and suffers no true division from institutional and denominational boundaries.


ARE THERE LOST PEOPLE IN AHA?
Of course it is possible, even likely that, there are those who take the name "abolitionist" and yet are unbelievers.

We are not a church. Yet only the most deluded and blind would think that there is no chance that their own church contains no unregenerate people, no false converts. That's the whole point of Jesus' institution and the Apostle Paul's reiteration of the need and proper process for church discipline.

We are up front and honest with everyone, as much as possible, about who we are and our strategies. We evangelise each other, sharing the law and the Gospel day after day.

We tell the unregenerate that we can work together towards the common goal of ending abortion, but we can never truly be on the same page because our core worldviews are different. But why would we tell people who want to work with us to go away? We want to be around non-Christians! There are those of us who resort to going out to the party district of their city late at night when they'd rather be in bed after a long week at work, or take vacation time off work to go onto the university campus, so as to share the law and the Gospel with lost people, and does Dr. Dingess think we should be intentionally telling those who want to be around us to take a hike?


ABOLITIONIST = CHRISTIAN?
One of the biggest problems with Dr. Dingess' article is the representation that we somehow equate being a "member of AHA" with being a Christian.

We never state that all Christians must self-identify with AHA. Again, if that is what people come away with when they visit our About Us page, we want to correct it, so this is another chance for us to sharpen our website.

To answer the question, all Christians must be salt and light in the world. This is the command of Jesus, and it's all over the Bible.
Here is just one place:
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
The good works that don't save us in verse 9 are the same good works that God has created us to do in verse 10.
The opposite of good works is bad works, and bad works are sin. Sin not only damns to Hell, it causes evil in the world, destroys relationships, wrecks communion with God, darkens the heart and spirit, and sears the consience. 1 John makes it clear that a lifestyle marked by sin is an indicator of the unregenerate condition of that person's heart.

Make no mistake, however. We question how it is that someone can call himself a Christian and yet take virtually no action on the issue of abortion. What other social evil is occurring at a level of 3500 deaths per day? Not all Christians need belong to AHA, but all Christians should have an abolitionist spirit and be engaging their culture in some fashion, because the culture is dark and evil, the people are lost and dying, and we have the light, the cure, the solution.

Consistent Christians are abolitionists but not necessarily tied to or self-labeled to associate with AHA. And of course, there is a host of evils out there. Christians can abolish other evils. AHA is not the actual thing we are calling people to. We are calling people to take up their cross, follow Jesus, love God entirely, and love neighbor as self. It's just that this is the way we see it played out in our time and on this issue. This is why we ask, "What does Christianity look like in a culture that murders its children?" Abolition is a principle and ideology that applies to any sin or evil, and as mentioned above, this is the most obvious legal evil facing our nation and the largest violation of love of neighbor at the moment.


DINGESS' PROBLEMATIC VIEW OF GOOD WORKS, SALT AND LIGHT
Dr. Dingess says:

The Church should preach the gospel, condemning abortion along the way without getting distracted by it...The Church cannot afford all these distractions
That is indeed what we are doing, as members of the Body of Christ.

Yet as he goes on to point out later, preaching the Gospel is not all we are commanded to do. We are commanded to teach others to observe all that Jesus commanded, to make disciples, and obviously we are ourselves to obey all that Jesus commanded as we do so. And He said that one of the great commandments is to love neighbor. Well, we see 3500 of our neighbors put to death by their mothers and hired hitmen in this nation of ours. We can't love them if they're dead; we are to deliver the helpless and weak from death.

Yes, this is a by-product of disciple-making. Does Dr. Dingess think that disciples are made only by sitting around and ingesting thousands of pages of theological tomes? We love books; don't get me wrong. We know, however, that actual love walks, talks, and moves. The happy side effect of discipling people as we love neighbor is that the "disciplee", as it were, gets to see how real love is played out, how suffering is endured, how patience is built up, how sin is dealt with, as we live real lives of agitation and assistance.

And see, we just plain disagree that the systematic murder of 55 million children since 1973 is a "distraction". Would Dr. Dingess have adopted the same refrain in the Third Reich in 1943? "We can't afford these distractions of all these Jews being shoved into ovens; let's just make disciples."

One is almost forced to inquire, about such an attitude: Is this real biblical priority expressed here, or is it Bible-y excuse for the fear of man?
Dr. Dingess goes on to make an erroneous point while quoting 1 Peter 2:9-12 for support.
The command to let our light shine comes within the immediate context of keeping the commandments. In other words, the good works referenced by Christ do not emphasize social works. They mean living out the Christian ethic before the world. Peter says as much when he quotes Christ, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation."
A few responses here:

1) Dr. Dingess does not inform us how precisely "social works" are different from "living out the Christian ethic before the world", especially as it pertains to abolition. He may be misunderstanding what we mean by "social works" (though I don't recall any of us using that term and neither our website nor our blog use it). Thus we will thank Dr. Dingess to be more careful in the future with his representation of our own words.

2) If he wants to live out the Christian ethic before the world, I'd like to ask Dr. Dingess what better suggestion he has than abolition, given that 3500 babies per day are murdered in this nation, and 55 million in 40 years.

3) How would Dr. Dingess propose we better keep the commandment to love neighbor as self in this kind of world? He doesn't say.

4) The passage itself says what we are saying. "Keep your behavior excellent", "...your good deeds", etc.

5) The earliest Church, as mentioned, were abolitionists of infant exposure, outright infanticide, abortion, child abandonment, and the gladiatorial games. They apparently thought 1 Peter's command was worth following.

6) This kind of language easily lends itself to supporting the false dichotomy between loving the born and the preborn. We are to love all people, their age unimportant.

7) Dr. Dingess may well profit from this recent article, the aforementioned pre-requisite reading.

8) What will Dr. Dingess make of other commands to do good works in the New Testament, such as Titus 3:14 - "Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful"?

Who has a more pressing need than the baby, who is a human being just like you or I, who is about to be murdered by his own mother and the hitman she pays to hold the weapon or administer the weaponised pharmaceutical?

Dr. Dingess states:

Hence, the light and salt argument that AHA puts forth is based on a misunderstanding of Christ’s command. While it may extend to caring for widows and orphans because this is indeed Christian love, it is entirely unrelated to the cause of exterminating social evils such as abortion.
How silly of us think that preborn children abandoned by their parents were orphans!
If one is inclined to be pedantic on this point, shall we conclude that, no, they are merely victims of parental homicide, so let's ignore them?

We are not called to end human trafficking.
1) That's easy for Dr. Dingess to say, living in a culture that still benefits, to this day, from the tireless efforts of men like Garrison, Wilberforce, Clarkson, Sharp, and Lovejoy.

2) We eagerly await Dr. Dingess' doubtless prompt publication of his critique of Louie Giglio's End It movement, in that case. Giglio should stick to making disciples. Those women trapped in sex slavery will figure it out. We have to make disciples.

We are called to live holy and to let the word see that holiness because it is the light of the world and the salt of the earth.
And how do we do that if we see "...a brother or sister (who) is without clothing and in need of daily food, (and we) say to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body"? "What use is that?" (James 2:15-16)
Does living holy include ignoring the blood of those under the knife, who are suffering death from weaponised pharamaceuticals?

The gospel is not “abortion is murder, Jesus died for sinners, place your faith in Christ."
No, it most certainly is not. Dr. Dingess made that up, and it is difficult to restrain a biting response to such misrepresentation of our position. Hopefully Dr. Dingess will read this article carefully and digest some of our other material before replying and will repent of what he has publicly said. We have never and would never say such a thing; to whom precisely is Dr. Dingess responding?

We will unhesitatingly accept that repentance at that time, for we love Dr. Dingess and long to see him obey Jesus fully as the Holy Spirit gives grace.

More than ever, the Church must distance itself from even the appearance of being a political movement. We are not a wing of the conservative party.
This is true, as "the conservative party" (by which I presume he means the Republican party) hasn't done close to enough! Honestly, it has barely even tried. Of course, political parties aim to be elected next cycle, generally. That's part of the problem.

Nowhere will anyone find any indication that we intend to be a political movement. We are, rather, engaging the culture - all parts of the culture - with the Gospel of Jesus. Jesus is Lord of all, not Lord of some.

There are those who denigrate us as "right-wingers", Republicans, fascists, etc. These are false and unkind pejoratives, which we reject.


ETERNAL?
We have serious work to do that has eternal consequences.
Murder and ignoring murder all around us also has eternal consequences.

And so does the fact that this nation is now without 55 million souls. Might one of those have been one who had as much Gospel potency and impact as a George Whitefield, a John Wesley, or a John Calvin? Might a man like that change some significant eternal consequences in this life?

We'll never know now.


TURNING A BLIND EYE
Perhaps another partial explanation for Dr. Dingess' strategy for not ending abortion is the fact that Dr. Dingess doesn't think that abortion will be abolished:
Human abortion is a very wicked social evil. There is no question about it. It is the law we live with in America. Is it going away? I don’t think it is.
There you go. It's not going away, so why even fight it?
Did Jesus call us to concern ourselves with how this will all turn out in the end? Or did He command us to love our neighbor as self?

Does Dr. Dingess know for sure that "just" preaching the Gospel and making disciples will cause unbelief to go away, that all people will be converted? If not, by this same logic, he shouldn't preach the Gospel or make disciples. If his response is "But Jesus told us to preach the Gospel and make disciples," he has failed to realise that Jesus has also commanded us to love our neighbor, and he has defeated his own objection.

This is the result of shallow thinking. We are to go forth in the strength Jesus provides us, to do what He told us to do. If we fail, we fail, and in our lives and hearts we exalt Jesus. If we succeed, it is all because of Jesus. If we fail, it is to the glory of Jesus, Whose power is made perfect in weakness.
The only way to truly end social ills is through a changed heart, a regenerated mind. That comes from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This, however, is absolutely right, which is why we welcome Dr. Dingess to join us.

You see, one of the pro-life movement's main strategies has been to ignore the Gospel in its work, searching for larger numbers and more political clout by diluting the message such that they are actually, at this point, hostile to the proclamation of the biblical Gospel. For this they will face fearful judgment, but we are not them. Dr. Dingess, an abolitionist loves neighbor and preaches the Gospel, both, at the same time. You can do both. Let us show you how, as we ourselves learn more and more and better and better how to do it.

Wednesday, March 20, 2013

Just so I can say I posted something today

Here's a quick convo I had on Facebook with some clueless agnostic.
------

You say "religion" has been the #1 cause of deaths throughout human history. I have a few responses:
1) I am not "religious". I am a biblical Christian. I join with you in marking as false all other religions except the one that Jesus taught.
2) As a matter of fact, religion is merely one factor in the tribalistic power struggles that have dominated human history.
3) Sin is the #1 cause of death. Not "religion".
4) If there is no God, if we are all evolved apes and just molecules in motion, so what if death occurs? It's natural, right? It's part of life, right? Who's to say that causing another bag of protoplasm to die more quickly is morally wrong? These are questions you have to answer, but I fortunately don't because Jesus has told me what humanity is about.


You said:
\\I'll say it again I believe science over anything.\\

How do you know that your observations and the observations of scientists won't be contradicted by a massive change in the laws of nature tomorrow?
How do you know they didn't change right before people started writing them down?
How do you know light doesn't travel in a curly-Q fashion 100,000 light years away?


You ask:
\\ What makes you think the persons that will be getting raped believes in God or is part of a church ?\\

Whether she is or isn't, it doesn't matter. I want the church to be a place where everyone can go for help when they are an innocent victim. We'll help her physically and spiritually.



\\ It all boils down to a choice that one individual will make with all beliefs aside of what others think.\\

That's completely false. The baby is not part of the mother's body. She is making a choice that will result in the death of another.  This is unacceptable.



\\I believe it is her choice and no one should have that right other wise to tell her what she can and can not do.\\

But since she is choosing death for another, surely you wouldn't say that's OK, right?
Or is it only SOME people who don't get to choose for another person? How do you know who gets to and who doesn't get to? What do you say to someone who says that the powerful get to choose death for preborn babies AND ALSO for toddlers? Or for babies AND ALSO for non-religious people named Max?


\\I believe that a one week old baby does not have a collect conscience and does not feel nor can think.\\

It's cute that you believe that, but I haven't asked for you to tell me a fairy tale about your beliefs. I asked how you KNOW, and you apparently don't.

Saturday, March 16, 2013

Not all abortive women are murderers

I invite you to watch as three women who can hardly be described as victims intentionally and voluntarily devote their children to destruction and death. Then compare that to the current and more popular thought prevalent in our culture today, that women murder their children because they are victims of someone else.

That is, to say the least, not even close to always true.

Friday, March 15, 2013

Norman Abortuary Outreach Report, 15 March 2013

Today was a busy day at the abortuary, sadly.

At least three women were in tears as they went in or came out, but they would not come talk to us. One had to be carried out by the man with her.

A man escorted a woman in, came out and drove away, came back, came out to smoke (and I preached the law and Gospel to him while he was there though he never responded), came out and drove away, then came back and went in, then came out with his girl. He heard a lot of law and Gospel. He also accepted a New Testament but didn't seem very affected by anything.

A family went in with two young children, toddler and preschooler. This was heartbreaking.

Also heartbreaking was the young woman who was very visibly pregnant and yet flipped us off as she entered.

One young man escorted a girl inside and dialogued with me a bit about abortion and how he was an atheist.

One young lady was going in for a diagnostic procedure and she was not pregnant. We asked her to go to another doctor from now on. She said it's a woman's choice to abort. We spent some time breaking down that view. She accepted a NT with some material in it as she was leaving.

Another couple went in, cussing me out, and later emerged. Shane said something about how she was a mother and she responded with a sneer, "Not anymore."

Monday, March 11, 2013

WinterJam 2013 Evangelism

Shane and I went out to address the thousands of people waiting in line to get into WinterJam 2013 at the Oklahoma City Chesapeake Arena recently.


Wednesday, February 27, 2013

In which I am victimised and then victim-shamed

Yesterday Abolish Human Abortion published a poster with the face of Jennifer Morbelli and verbiage that challenges abortion (as should be no surprise to anyone).
We received a private message in the Facebook inbox, I decided to reply, and an interesting conversation ensued:
============

HER:
This photo is blatantly exploiting the deceased. It has the potential to hurt a family which I'm sure are already suffering. Exploitation is not a valid means of making your point. I'm politely privately requesting that you remove this image rather than going directly to Facebook about it (which I'm sure will have no qualms about removing it, and possibly taking other actions against your page). I'm sorry to have to contact you under these circumstances, thanks for your time and thank you in advance for doing the right thing.
Attachment Unavailable
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ME:
A brief question, if you don't mind: Do you think the family of the deceased is spending much time on Facebook right now?

-Rhology


HER:
Eventually they will be and if this is offensive for me to see as someone who doesn't know her I can only imagine how they might feel. Keep in mind that I am not a fan of your page and came across this image via a share. Things get around the web quickly, I urge that you keep that in mind and consider that before posting things of this nature. Don't be the one who propagates that cycle. Again, thanks for your time.


ME:
May I ask why you believe this picture is offensive? Is not the woman pictured a victim of the very culture and legalised action we seek to entirely abolish? If we had our way, she and her baby would be alive. Because of the jacked-up culture, she and her baby are dead.

So, what's the problem here?

-Rhology


HER:
With all due respect, I'm not here to argue or be your plaything for the evening. If victim blaming and further victimizing someone feels right to you then I'll just take it to Facebook and hope they have stronger morals. Good evening to you.


ME:
Oh, I see - you say you want to be respectful and kind and all that, and then when I ask you some questions, you resort to "be your plaything for the evening".
So the whole respectful thing was a façade, a little game.

I hope you enjoyed it.

-Rhology


HER:
I hate to say this, but I didn't expect anything more than childishness from you. I can only hope that my words took some effect and you'll consider respect for those who cannot speak for themselves in the future. I've turned this over to Facebook. I bid you a final goodnight.

ME:
Interesting, *you're* the one who said "be your plaything", and *I'm* the childish one. I'm the one asking reasonable questions, and you're the one being insulting.

The effect your words have had on me was further reinforcement that there was no merit to your complaint. Sadly, you seem blind to what you did here.

-Rhology


ME:
Also, just for the sake of full disclosure, "be your plaything" is highly offensive and sexist. You should be ashamed of saying stuff like that.

-Rhology


HER:
I answered your questions and you refused to see how victim blaming and further victimizing a young woman is inappropriate, specifically for a public forum. Those behaviors are that of a preteen and proliferating them is, in my own opinion, irresponsible.
The fact you seem defensive tells me that I did something right to make a difference.
Furthermore, if you're under the impression that what I said was "sexist" then maybe I should suggest you get a larger vocabulary and possibly work on your impure thoughts.
It seems that I'm having to repeat myself quite a bit here but again, thank you for your time and good evening.

(Anything further will be taken as harassment and further reported.)


ME:
Hahahaha, you initiate the conversation, you say something sexist and denigrating, you further victim-shame me for the way YOU made me feel, and now you want the last word such that you threaten reporting for "harassment"?
You must be joking.

Thanks for your time.

-Rhology


HER:
For the record saying "if we had it our way she and her baby would be alive" and the initial caption of the (apparently successfully removed) post is called victim-shaming. My actions are merely called patronizing.

patronizing: present participle of pa·tron·ize (Verb)
Treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

Wether or not you consider yourself a victim of my display of intelligence is subjective. Meaning its up to you, but I certainly won't shame you for it.


ME:
Notice how you victim-shamed me to justify yourself?

See, you DID shame me.

-Rhology

Sunday, February 24, 2013

In which I am revealed to be a pervert, an idiot, a moron, and unregenerate

It remains unclear, however, whether I should repent of any of that.


  • I come across this statement now and then written to unbelievers: "You need to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins." Interesting. I thought for sure He already did that 2000 years ago and waited for me to believe it. Am I missing something?
    Like ·  · 
    • 5 people like this.
    • Dave O'Brien No, but anyone who says that is probably missing Jesus.
    • Rho Logy Whether the sins are forgiven or not, lost people will not receive any benefit from forgiveness unless they repent and believe. That's the point, really.
    • Dave O'Brien Yep, and what they are repenting from is unbelief.
    • Rho Logy And the rest of their sin. We all have lots of sin!  Unbelief is merely one of many.
    • Dave O'Brien Nobody repents of their sins. Jesus died for our sins, we don't get to repent from them. When we receive Him, we receive forgiveness of our sins.
    • Rho Logy Sure they repent. Jesus said to - Mark 1:15.
    • Rho Logy When we receive Him (which repentance is part of), we receive forgiveness of sins.
    • Dave O'Brien Rho, your first post concerning Mark 1:15, Jesus says nothing about repenting from sins (read it again). Your second point, affirms what I said. Repentance is turning from unbelief to belief. People who believe they must repent from their sins, deny that Jesus died for them. It is not possible to have it both ways.
    • Rho Logy Please prove biblically that repentance = turning ONLY from unbelief to belief. 
      Also, since unbelief is sin, as you said, I don't see why what I said is incorrect.
    • Rho Logy Matthew 3:8
      Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance

      What does that mean?
    • Rho Logy Luke 3:3
      And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

      ...of sin***S***

      Unbelief is more than one sin?
    • Dave O'Brien You want me to tell you what the Gospel is? Jesus died for our sins and was raised for our justification. All men were dead because of sin, and in need of life. men are saved by receiving His life. In His life we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins. Faith comes by hearing the message of the Gospel. Men are saved by receiving His life, not by repenting of their sins. You are the one in opposition to the Gospel, not me. You need to "prove" your claims, and you will be searching forever, because there is no verse that says that men are saved by repenting from their sins. Not a single one.
    • Rho Logy \\Men are saved by receiving His life, not by repenting of their sins\\

      It's both, actually. 

      \\You are the one in opposition to the Gospel, not me.\\

      Whatever. 

      \\You need to "prove" your claims\\

      I cited a few texts for you to reply to.

      \\ because there is no verse that says that men are saved by repenting from their sins. \\

      Except those two.
    • Dave O'Brien I don't believe you have the capacity to comprehend what you are reading. In neither passage does it say anything about repenting from sins. In Matthew, Jesus is speaking of communicating the truth concerning who He is. They repented from unbelief, and they are to continue bearing the fruit of that.

      In Luke, it says that forgiveness follows repentance. Logically, if they repented from their sins, there would be no need for forgiveness of them. Jesus died for our sins. You don't like that, but that is the truth.
    • Elly McMashehu One who has not repented of their sins has not interest in the Savior who died to pay for their sins. If I was having an adulterous relationship and told my husband that he should accept and forgive me but that I would not repent (apoligize & turn from) the sin of adultery, it would be ludicrous to think that he should accept and forgive me - and it would show that I truly had no contrition for my sin against him (or God). Additionally, it is not we who need to receive Jesus, it is Jesus who needs to receive and accept us; it is the Holy God of this universe who has been sinned against - we have shaken our fist at Him. He is not sitting and waiting for us to accept Him, He has "commanded all men everywhere to repent." He will accept us when we flee to Him in repentance & faith in Him alone (and He alone can grant us the ability to repent & believe).
    • Dave O'Brien It's not both. That would be a contradiction. Do you understand what repentance is? Repentance means to completely cease from doing one thing in thought and deed and turn completely the other direction and begin doing the opposite. You've never done that, nor can you.
    • Dave O'Brien I see Elly, you believe in a works based gospel (which Paul called "another gospel"). You claim that unless you stop "sinning" you are not saved. Good luck with that.
    • Elly McMashehu Repentance is turning from sin by God's enabling grace, I have NO ability in myself to turn from sin. And I absolutely still sin (ask my kids or my husband), but I now hate the sin I used to love, and I strive towards holiness by the power of the Holy Spirit. I sin all the time, but it is with great grief to my soul that I sin, and the Lord grants me a repentant heart on an ongoing basis. Repentance is a gift from God, so I can take NO credit for it. Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise."
    • Elly McMashehu Acts 5:31
      2 Timothy 2:25
      I'm baffled why a born again Christian would resist that they must repent for the sins for which Christ died. Repentance is not sinless perfection, it is a turning from sin (which will not be made perfect until we get to heaven).
      (Okay turning computer off now, so I'm not ignoring, just won't be online)
    • Rho Logy \\They repented from unbelief, and they are to continue bearing the fruit of that.\\

      Point that out in the text, please. 

      \\ Logically, if they repented from their sins, there would be no need for forgiveness of them. \\

      **OR** what I'm saying is true. 
      Yeah. 
      Thanks.
    • Dave O'Brien Elly, you can't have it both ways. Think about what you are saying. You cannot both say that Jesus fully propitiated the Father through His "once for all" sacrifice, and the claim that you must make your own sacrifice for sin.

      John 1:12
      But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

      Colossians 2:6
      Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him
    • Rho Logy \\ Jesus died for our sins. You don't like that, but that is the truth.\\

      Um, what in the world would lead you to the conclusion that I don't like that Jesus died for our sins?
      I do believe that. 

      \\the claim that you must make your own sacrifice for sin.\\

      Who said that?
      You are not acting honorably, putting words in our mouths, calling us the equivalent of unregenerate. We have not done that. You have. You should repent of that. We are fellow Christians.
    • Dave O'Brien What you are saying is a lie, Rho. It is a false gospel of works based, man-centered, righteousness. You have never believed the Gospel.
    • Rho Logy K thanks for your opinion which is uninformed by the texts I cited.
    • Dave O'Brien It's not an "opinion", it's the Gospel, which you have never believed. The texts you cited prove what I said and destroy your theory. You deny that Jesus died for your sins, and instead you teach that men are to "repent" from them. That is a false, anti-Christ message.
    • Rho Logy \\You deny that Jesus died for your sins\\

      ???????????
    • Donna Ballentine Re: confession...I cannot find one passage written by the apostle Paul instructing us to confess our sins. Paul's meassage is a confession of faith: "Confess Jesus Christ is Lord..."(Phil 2:11), "...confess the Lord Jesus, believe in thine heart that God raised Him from the dead, and thou shalt be saved." (Rom 10:9)
    • Rho Logy 1 John 1:9, Rev 2:5 and 16, Acts 3:19, etc
    • Donna Ballentine The apostle Paul?
    • Dave O'Brien Acts 3:19
      "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

      Rho has major reading and comprehension issues. This verse says nothing about repenting from sins.
    • Scott Evans That's great you can quote Scripture, Rho, so now work on taking the next step and learn how, and do, what Paul taught in 2 Timothy 2:15.
    • Rho Logy Golly, thanks, I'll sure try.
    • Scott Evans That sounds like sarcasm to me.
    • Rho Logy You understood that better than Dave has understood me today.
    • Scott Evans Rho, your quoting 1 John, Revelation 2:5, and Acts 3 to make your point on the subject in this thread shows you do not know how to rightly divide the word of God. I hope you will have the humility to realize that fact and find out exactly what that means, my friend.
    • Rho Logy Unless you're willing to tell me right here and how that Dave has gone way over the top in his wild-eyed mouth-foaming dismissal of my profession of faith b/c he thinks that repentance of sin is unnecessary for justification, I have no interest in wasting my time with you here.
    • Rho Logy So, the ball is in your court.
    • Scott Evans I was afraid of an angry, prideful response like that, and I'm saddened by it. Have it your way.
    • Rho Logy LOL kthx
    • Rho Logy Scott, is it possible for two saved, regenerate Christians to disagree on a biblical issue in good conscience?
    • Rho Logy Also, are you saying that I need to repent of
      1) being angry over this
      2) being prideful
      3) thinking that one must repent of one's sins to be justified? 

      If not, why bring it up?
      If so, why?
    • Donna Ballentine Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry taught the 12 the gospel, which was of prophecy revealed throughout scripture.. The risen Christ taught Paul a gospel, which had been kept hidden. Paul calls it "my gospel". He calls it a "mystery". Something new was revealed to Paul. James writes, "faith without works is dead." Paul - "faith requires no works" Jesus instructs the 12 to forgive or they won't be forgiven. Paul - "Forgive, as the Father has forgiven you." (There are many more) Scott Evans is right. When we rightly divide these differences, we see things differently. And, it's joyous.
    • Donna Ballentine Consider Peter and his meeting with Cornelius (Acts 10) He resists the risen Lord twice. He goes to Cornelius, saying it is un-lawful for him to be here. The people with Peter are astonished, and, when Peter tells the other apostles, they're astonished. He has to explain it to them. Expain what? What the risen Christ has revealed to Paul (Acts 9) Something never revealed before. Now Gentiles would no longer have to come to God through the nation of Israel. Which was different than prophecy and Christ's earthly ministry.
    • Dave O'Brien Rho... If you think repenting of sins is necessary to be saved, you believe in another gospel. That is exactly what Paul would say to you, and why I say it to you. This should concern you, but it doesn't, because you are more willing to hold on to your pet theory, than to accept the truth. 

      It is impossible for anyone to believe that you must repent from your sins, and also claim that Jesus died for them. That is two completely different ways of dealing with the issue of sin. It is the same as saying that Jesus died for my sins, and I also have this goat here that I will be sacrificing for my sins. Two different methods for dealing with sin. Very simple. Which way will you choose?
    • Rho Logy \\If you think repenting of sins is necessary to be saved, you believe in another gospel.\\

      Should I repent of thinking that repenting of sins is necessary to be saved? 
      If so, why?

      \\This should concern you\\

      Should I repent of my lack of concern?

      \\you are more willing to hold on to your pet theory, than to accept the truth.\|

      Should I repent of preferring my pet theory to the truth?

      \\Which way will you choose?\\

      If I choose wrong, should I repent of that? 
      If so, why?
      Friday at 3:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
    • Dave O'Brien Yes to all, Rho, because you are still walking in unbelief, of which you have never repented. If you had repented, you would not currently believe in your system of repentance. You would believe the Gospel, which you currently do not believe. Very simple.
    • Rho Logy I'm supposed to repent of sin?
    • Dave O'Brien You are supposed to repent of unbelief. John 16:8-9
    • Rho Logy ME: Should I repent of preferring my pet theory to the truth?
      YOU: Yes to all, Rho

      Is preferring my pet theory to the truth sin?
    • Dave O'Brien It is unbelief, Rho. Obviously, you don't take the Gospel seriously. It is no wonder you put your confidence in you and what you do, rather than in Christ and His finished work.
    • Scott Evans Rho, do you know why Paul withstood Peter to his face?
    • Elly McMashehu Repentance is a gift from God, we have NO ability to repent without His enabling. It is NOT a work of man. I'm really shocked and grieved at this thread. All the verses provided about repentance are being completely ignored, and I can't figure out why. Your view of sin - and the need to repent of it (remember, repentance is NOT sinless perfection) - says *much* of your esteem of Christ's sacrifice on behalf of those who flee to Him.
    • Dave O'Brien No Elly, you are greatly deceived. The verses are not "ignored", but correctly exegeted as to what they actually say. They DO NOT say that believers repent of their sins. What they do say is that those who repent of unbelief will receive forgiveness of their sins. BIG difference.

      Reformed theology is an anti-Christ cult. They have a different Jesus. They have a Jesus who did not die for the sins of all men, nor for all sins of all men. Their Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His shed blood was insufficient.
    • Elly McMashehu Could you please define repentance?
    • Dave O'Brien A change of mind or behavior.
    • Elly McMashehu So if a person has saving faith in Jesus Christ, are you saying that they will not change their mind about sin and will cease from their pursuit of sinful behavior? I'm just trying to figure out if this is a matter of semantics.
    • Dave O'Brien If a person has saving faith in Christ, they have obeyed the Gospel in which the righteousness of God is revealed Rom 1:16-17. They know that they are unrighteous, and in need of God's righteousness, which can only come as a gift Rom 5:17. Having received the gift of righteousness, they are no longer unrighteous, nor can they be. Why? Because we are no longer under the Law which proved us as sinners, and are now under grace which proves our righteousness. God no longer takes our sin into account 2 Cor 5:19. We are no longer sinners, but saints. We are the righteousness of God in Christ 2 Cor 5:21. In Him we have been made complete Col 2:10, and we are perfected forever Heb 10:14. Paul knew full well that the Law would expose the indwelling sin in his flesh (Romans 7), and that if any of us examine ourselves according to the flesh we will find coveting of every kind. All we can produce, in light of the Law, are the deeds of the flesh Gal 5:19-21, and all we can practice is the evil we do not wish (Rom 7). That is why there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Rom 8:1.

      To change your mind about your behavior is not repenting from sins. Jesus died for our sins (all of them) and God no longer take our sins into account. We change our minds (repent) from our behavior because it is profitable. 1 Cor 6:12.
    • Rho Logy \\It is unbelief, Rho\\

      IS IT SIN? 
      Please, just answer the question.

      Then answer this, since we both know it is sin: 
      Why must one repent of THAT sin but not ALL THE REST of the sins one has committed?
    • Rho Logy \\ do you know why Paul withstood Peter to his face?\\

      B/c he was not acting like the Gospel is true. He was acting like there is more to the Gospel than faith and repentance.
    • Rho Logy \\ Their Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His shed blood was insufficient.\\

      Shrug. That's just entirely false. It may be what you think, but you think wrong. Sorry.
    • Dave O'Brien No, Rho, reformed theology teaches that Jesus only died for some men and their sins, not all men and all sin. Either you have no idea what Calvinism teaches, or you are still wallowing in self-denial.
    • Rho Logy \\ reformed theology teaches that Jesus only died for some men and their sins, not all men and all sin.\\

      Yes, I know that. But you said:
      \\Their Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His shed blood was insufficient.\\

      Deal with THAT please, because it's a lie. Or do you mean Jesus did not satisfy the Father about His wrath against ALL sin?
      Thing is, you don't believe that either, b/c you said unbelief is a sin, and I presume you think that those who are guilty of it and die in unbelief will go to Hell, which is undeniably the wrath of God.

      Your theology is a mess. But at least you're entertaining.
    • Dave O'Brien Are you a complete idiot? I was talking about what reformed theology believes, not what I believe. Learn to read you moron. You don't know Jesus from Adam, you worthless little twerp.

      My quote was:

      "THEY (Calvinists) have a Jesus who did not die for
       the sins of all men, nor for all sins of all men. THEIR (Calvinists) Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His (the Jesus of Calvinism) shed blood was insufficient".

      Everything I said above is TRUE concerning the false "Jesus" of Calvinism. They deny that Jesus died for the sins of all men, and they deny that Jesus died for all sins. They deny that the death of Jesus propitiated the Father for all sins. They deny that the blood of Jesus was sufficient for all sins for all men. 

      There is only One Jesus who died, and THAT Jesus died for ALL sins, of ALL men, for ALL time - It Is Finished. YOU (Rho), have never believed in the Jesus of the Bible. You have a false Jesus, and a false gospel. You worship a goat god, whose blood is inferior.
      Friday at 11:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
    • Elly McMashehu Wow, "idiot" and "moron" and "twerp"? Speechless.
    • Dave O'Brien Instead of dealing with the truth, Elly, you prefer to focus on how I referred to the idiot. Just like the Pharisees before you, whom Jesus called "children of the devil" and "fools", they also rejected the truth and took offense at the names Jesus called them. You need to take a serious look at what you believe, because what you believe is not what the Bible teaches.
      Friday at 11:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
    • Elly McMashehu Dave, I have never known someone who has been born again call someone else an idiot, twerp, and moron without repenting immediately. I'm grieved by this thread, andScott, I'm grieved by your "like" of Dave's hateful speech. I'm not on FB for this ungodly behavior, so I'm going to have to unfriend. 1 John 4:20-21 "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also."
    • Scott Evans Unfriending isn't a very loving thing to do, Elly.
    • Elly McMashehu Scott, we've been told we're heretics and worse here, and you've "Like"d it. I'm on FB for encouragement in the faith, not for ungodly and unloving blasts from those who profess to be submitted to Christ.
    • Elly McMashehu I *rarely* unfriend, and will refrain - if you disassociate from what Dave has said here.
    • Scott Evans Threatening isn't very loving either, Elly. Do you even know why Dave became so frustrated with Rho? Rho is firing back at Dave like a junior high kid would. Dave told what the beliefs of reformed theology are and Rho attributed it to what Dave believes! Rho doesn't even care enough to think through Dave's posts. I guess you'd unfriend Jesus, too, after he said to Peter, "But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” How unloving of Him!
    • Dave O'Brien Elly, simple questions that you must answer for yourself. 

      Did Jesus love the Pharisees? Yes or No?
      Did Paul love the Judaizers? Elymas? Yes or No?

      “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Matt 23:15

      "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?" Matt 23:17

      "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" Matt 23:33

      "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." John 8:44

      "But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, and said, “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?" Acts 13:9-10

      "I wish the people who are bothering you would castrate themselves!" Gal 5:12

      "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". Gal 1:8 

      "Accursed" without hope of being redeemed.

      Would you rather have Rho eternally separated from God because he believes in "another gospel"? I wouldn't. I'd rather he examine himself to see if he is in the faith, and to repent in his unbelief concerning who Jesus is and what He fully accomplished on the cross. I want the same for you.

      Apparently you are more concerned with me calling an idiot an "idiot", then you are about his soul?

      Who then is the one who truly loves him?
    • Dave O'Brien It's amazing Scott how many people will ignore the truth because they are personally offended by it. That's exactly what the Jews did with Jesus.
    • Rho Logy \\ Rho is firing back at Dave like a junior high kid would.\\

      LOL no, not really. Let the reader judge who instigated the tussle, who has consistently degraded the tone of the discussion, and who is the one who accused the other of being unregenerate. 

      Hint: His name rhymes with Slave O'Lyin.
    • Rho Logy DAVE AND SCOTT: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS PLEASE. 
      Stop playing your little games. Answer my questions.

      You said:
      \\Their Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His shed blood was insufficient.\\


      Deal with THAT please, because it's a lie. Or do you mean Jesus did not satisfy the Father about His wrath against ALL sin?
      Thing is, you don't believe that either, b/c you said unbelief is a sin, and I presume you think that those who are guilty of it and die in unbelief will go to Hell, which is undeniably the wrath of God.

      \\It is unbelief, Rho\\

      IS IT SIN? 
      Please, just answer the question.

      Then answer this, since we both know it is sin: 
      Why must one repent of THAT sin but not ALL THE REST of the sins one has committed?
    • Dave O'Brien Dear Rho the pervert, YOU are the liar. I answered that question for YOU completely 13 posts back. Learn to read moron.
    • Rho Logy Repent of your evil speech and thoughts that would lead you to treat me this way. 
      Shame on you, Scott Evans, if you should fail to ask your friend to repent for this. It is not loving to overlook sin in a brother; it is hatred. James 5:19-20. 

      I'm out.
    • Dave O'Brien "Evil speech"? LOL You are the one who tells lies, slanders those who tell you the truth, and then accuse me of "evil speech". You're lost.
    • Scott Evans Wow, Rho. Come on. When Dave said, "Their Jesus did not satisfy the Father. His shed blood was insufficient," he was saying what reformed theology believes, not what Dave, himself, believes. Why can't you see that? 

      "And he brought them out and said
      , “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” - Acts 16:30-31. I guess Paul and Silas just forgot to tell the Phillipian jailer the part about turning away from his sins. 

      I don't know if unbelief in the finished work of Jesus Christ is considered a sin or not. I'd like to see the biblical evidence of the answer. But if unbelief is a sin, it's the ONLY sin that will send someone to hell because Jesus died for all of our sins. Jesus won't cast anyone into hell who believes in His finished work. "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." - Romans 11:6. It's not grace plus works. That's what Catholics believe. It's grace alone.