Hi Thom,
I agree w/ you on two things:
1) that debate over at my blog is hard to keep up w/...I don't know how better to organise it, but I'm open to suggestions! It doesn't help that I'm verbose and Adam is super-verbose. :-)
2) I too question the worth of continuing to respond here, but I have high hopes for you guys - you don't disdain discussion and that's more than one can say for lots of other people.
I note in passing that changing one letter out of an expletive goes a fair distance in displaying the state of your heart. Just saying.
As for me being a "street preacher", I misspoke. Here's what Dave said:
--You come across to me as a corner preacher with a bullhorn, tracts, and a giant billboard strapped to your body, “Repent, the end is near!!!” I do hope that isn’t an accurate representation (it likely isn’t, but all that I have to go on is the tone and attitude that comes across in your writings), but based upon your fixations with calling people out and cornering individuals that you know very little about…this is the way you come across to me.
Insulted? Well, words do hurt, you know. I challenge anyone to point out where I have made a similar negative comparison to Dave. I don't think it's unclear why Dave chose the abusive corner preacher to compare me to. You may think it's all b/c of me, but again, you'd have to point out where I've acted like one for that to stick.
THOM: I am more concerned that you (like most preachers) would advise Dave to be deceptive in relating to others where he is in his personal walk with God.
Why do you think it is commendable to question basic and obvious truths in the Bible? On one level I can see why that would be good - **IF** it leads to the strengthening of one's faith in that Bible and in those truths. For it to lead one elsewhere is nothing less than idolatry and is terrible.
For a leader like Dave to post such things on a public forum like a blog is worse yet - what kind of example is he setting for his people? Can you let me know what good you hope to see come from this?
THOM: Deception, that’s how most failures in ministry happen.
Losing faith in and showing lack of confidence in the msg doesn't help either, you know.
THOM: Searching for truth and living it is never a “waste of time”.
Agreed, but this is not the right kind of "searching for truth" that a leader should engage in.
THOM: And spend time better by teaching people, what exactly?
See, this is one of those things that SCARES me about the Emergent Church conversation. You don't know what to teach people?
1) Maybe you should ask your pastor.
2) If you are the pastor, for God's sake step down.
3) If you don't have a pastor, join a church and get one/some.
4) If you do have a pastor and he doesn't know, for God's sake go find another church.
The Scripture, Thom. The Gospel. You know, the stuff that's going to save your soul if you stop getting in its way?
Peace,
ALAN
8 comments:
Howdy Alan...
First Point, I agree, you guys ramble on and on and on about what Paul and the writer of Hebrews define as spiritual milk. You know what too much milk does to babies?
CRAMPING and GAS...
Imagine what meat can do to babies.
Second Point, Apologetics always seems to bring out arrogance in the person who thinks they "know it all"! You are no exception, but I have high hopes for you too. ;>)
I was typing that very gently so I wouldn't hurt your feelings...
I am being sincere.
That said, I must also compliment you on your belief statement linked to your church...
I've never seen a list so complete, every I-dotted and every T-crossed. Well Done!
I agree totally, so I guess our butts our covered... PTL!!!
In passing, that word wasn't a expletive, just organic fertilizer.
Sorry about the "butt" too...
Third Point,
Remember the kiddie rhyme?
"sticks and stones" ?
Mama always said...
"Words only hurt if you let them".
So don't let them...
Now after reading what Dave said, and without really knowing you other than what I've been reading, I would agree, that is how you come across. Sorry...
My Points, All pertain to teaching.
Adam would disagree but here is what I believe followers of Christ should do...
1. Love God...
2. Love Each Other (including enemies) even if they insult or hurt your feelings... ;>)
3. Make Disciples...
4. Throw in some praise, prayer and healing and I think that covers it.
I also believe Jesus did Three GREAT things that made it possible for humans to affect the world for change like He did...
1. Lived and Died...
2. Rose Again...
3. Sent His Spirit to live in us and empower us to live JUST like He did!
It's #3 that I believe is not being taught properly if at all. Because if it were, the world truly would be a different place.
I will be arrogant enough to say...
I know a lot about scripture and the madness of interpretation, so like Adam, I consider it all dung compared to "WHO" I know...
Now I have much Faith and Hope in what scripture says, but I Love the One who "Knows Me"!!!
For me, that's all that matters.
Alan, concerning your last statements,your arrogance is showing again.
I'll testify for Dave, Adam and myself, We are saved, we're just beginning to Live The Life...
We have found being honest in the journey demonstrates more Faith than you are showing to fellow brothers in Christ.
So we are teaching something after all. Another thing, Paul was a gnostic in many ways, He always alluded to mysteries.
I know Our Father still has a few in store for us.
You really sound like you believe GOD is bound by the "written word" just like in Christ' time when the scholars knew the scripture but missed the Saviour. Just like the Jewish believers when they heard Gentiles were being accepted by GOD.
Alan, don't be scared. Let the Perfect Love of Christ cast out ALL Fear. He'll do it, It's a promise.
Closing advice,like Paul would say, if you are going to lead and teach
Ya gotta grow up, put away the nipple and try solid food.
Grace, Peace and Much Love... t.f.
Hope this isn't too verbose... :>)
Hi Thom,
Thanks for stopping by!
-you guys ramble on and on and on about what Paul and the writer of Hebrews define as spiritual milk. You know what too much milk does to babies?
CRAMPING and GAS...
Imagine what meat can do to babies.
RHOLOGY: You're misusing the analogy. Paul and the author of Hebrews are reprimanding their audiences for not having yet moved on to the meat of godly teaching but rather sticking way too long w/ milk.
Besides, the debate to which you refer is better explained thusly:
Adam keeps eating poison and giving poison to others.
I'm trying to convince him to drink milk rather than poison so that later he can grow out of milk and into meat.
But as it is, he's still on a strict poison diet.
-Apologetics always seems to bring out arrogance in the person who thinks they "know it all"!
RHOLOGY: It is a great temptation, it is true. I am not immune unfortunately.
-You are no exception
RHOLOGY: Could you provide some examples of my being arrogant?
-I am being sincere.
RHOLOGY:And I appreciate that very much.
-your belief statement linked to your church...
I've never seen a list so complete, every I-dotted and every T-crossed. Well Done!
RHOLOGY: Thanks! Haha, I wish I had written it.
I don't suppose you have a similar statement of belief, whether from your church or for yourself, do you? If so, could you post it/link to it?
-I agree totally, so I guess our butts our covered... PTL!!!
RHOLOGY: Just to clarify - you agree totally w/ the Belief Statement of my church?
-In passing, that word wasn't a expletive, just organic fertilizer.
Sorry about the "butt" too...
RHOLOGY: Sure it was. Sorry, I don't believe that for one second.
"Butt" is fine - I say it all the time. I think you know the difference.
-kiddie rhyme - "Words only hurt if you let them".
So don't let them...
RHOLOGY: My authority is rather the Word of God, which has some things to say about that.
-I would agree, that is how you come across. Sorry...
RHOLOGY: Would YOU accept such a hollow apology?
Corner preachers don't typically engage in rational discourse. It doesn't bother me that you think I'm abrasive and cocky b/c I think I know the truth.
I DO think I have the truth. So do you - you think it is true that I'm wrong in these things; you think it is true that I am like a corner preacher.
But it's not my fault that rational discourse rubs you the wrong way. That should be your concern.
-here is what I believe followers of Christ should do... 1 2 3 4
RHOLOGY: More or less, that sounds pretty good to me too.
-I also believe Jesus did Three GREAT things...1 2 3
RHOLOGY:It's encouraging to hear that - I think, at least at this point, you have a good grasp of truly important things. That's obviously not all Jesus did (as I'm sure you would agree) but those are probably the 3 most important things.
-It's #3 that I believe is not being taught properly if at all. Because if it were, the world truly would be a different place.
RHOLOGY: I don't think any one of the 3 you named are generally properly taught.
One of the best examples of that is the excising of the biblical teaching about man's sin and his inability to stand before a holy God, which is what necessitated Jesus' death in the 1st place.
-like Adam, I consider it all dung compared to "WHO" I know...
RHOLOGY: Adam doesn't know Christ at all, Thom. Hopefully you'll think more fully about associating yourself w/ him in the future.
-I'll testify for Dave, Adam and myself, We are saved
RHOLOGY: I don't know about Dave, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Judging from what you've been writing on your blog recently, I'd doubt that you even know what it means to be saved. Adam doesn't.
-We have found being honest in the journey demonstrates more Faith than you are showing to fellow brothers in Christ.
RHOLOGY: "Brothers" is very valuable to me - I don't call just anyone "brother."
Someone who doesn't hold to the Gospel...I don't want to dilute the meaning of "brother". That's the biblical criteria - that we both be adopted children of God.
-Paul was a gnostic in many ways, He always alluded to mysteries.
RHOLOGY: During the relevant historical period, "gnostic" had two meanings. For one, you're quite right. But the other position, which I call big "G" "Gnostic", is a position that excludes someone from the Body of Christ and from salvation. That's what Adam is.
Adam doesn't just "allude to mysteries." I do that too. He teaches things that deny the Gospel in many ways.
-You really sound like you believe GOD is bound by the "written word"
RHOLOGY: No offense, but that is a ridiculous strawman that's very often foisted upon the Bible-believer by liberals and neo-liberals (aka Emergent Church-ers).
The truth is - the final authority FOR HUMANS is God's written Word, b/c that is the way God has chosen to reveal His law and His Gospel. One day the written Word will be matched by the visible rule of Jesus Christ, in the New Jerusalem. At that time, neither one will be higher than the other, b/c the words that Jesus Himself says in realtime will be of equivalent authority as the Scripture - both will be God's Word.
-just like in Christ' time when the scholars knew the scripture but missed the Saviour.
RHOLOGY: They missed the Messiah not b/c they knew the Scriptures but b/c they didn't listen to them and were of their father, the devil.
If what you say is true, Christ should have rebuked the unbelieving Jews for holding to the Scripture. Rather, we see Him doing sthg radically different - rebuking them for holding their human traditions over the Word of God. Incidentally, that's how one can know what is a "human" tradition and what is a godly tradition - judge it by the Word of God.
My advice - verbosity is OK, but misusing the Scripture as you've been doing is not.
Peace,
ALAN
Hi Alan...
I've been busy and it took awhile to get back. First, I want to say that before I engage in any conversation about spiritual matters I try to get to know somebody by listening, or in this case, reading what somebody thinks.
I always hope someone reads me first too. It saves time typing.
In your case, I've tracked all your interaction with Dave and Adam, much of what you've written on your blog and the exchange with the Vile Blasphemer. I agree with Dave and VB, you are exhausting to read and even more to converse with. This may "sound hollow" but I really am sorry. At this point I feel I know you, more than you know me...
A "rational discourse" does not "rub me the wrong way" because I know in "your head" you believe you're presenting a rational discourse but it's kinda hard not to be distracted by the REPENT sign you wear.
It's very clear to everyone but you that it's everybody else's truth that "rubs you the wrong way"...
I felt Adam, Dave and the VB were very gracious to someone who may understand the concept of grace and what Christ did at the cross, resurrection and Pentecost but is just terrible at explaining it with love.
You "do it" not to win souls, but to win the debate. You practically said so to VB. To his credit,he saw through you and decided not to engage "your way".
It's clear he's learned it's futile to engage with your type on a site like his.
I really believe that if someone can't give away a free gift (grace) it's because they haven't received it themselves. Just sayin'.
I still maintain that you are the one that doesn't understand milk and meat because you seem incompetent at discerning where people are at in their journey of "seeking God" or "growing up". Nor are you loving or patient enough. You've got kids, do you ever force feed them? Babies eat when their hungry, grown-ups do too.
Be sensitive to hunger and provide the right food. Easy, right?
Adam eating and sharing poison...
All I can type is B.S. and I do mean excrement not an expletive.
In the short time I've known Adam, I feel he's developing doctrine that grounds him in the flesh but I'm confident he'll find GOD completely in the end. Proof for me is the fruit I see in him. You know, Love Joy, Peace, Patience, etc...
Love being the most important!
GOD started a work in Adam and will complete it, it's a promise I believe in. You should too.
Words only hurt people that are grounded in their flesh, that's why you're so sensitive. If you have read my blog you'll find that is my mission, teaching people how to walk in the spirit, I should warn you, I don't write for those who need to be spoon fed. I just love the mysteries of GOD.
Just so we're clear, I didn't come to defend Adam or Dave, I think they do a great job themselves.
I was more invested in the exchange with Dave on his "Dreaming" vid.
I was just bored one night and just followed the highjacking over here.
I've concluded, many have a hope and prayer for the church to change and be more effective but continue to handicap it by incompetent "swordplay". My advice to you, put down the sword, you're hurting yourself and others. Love is the better way...
My hope and prayer, I desire unity.
When I see a pure spotless bride, I'll rejoice.
Till then, More Faith, More Hope...
Much Prayer...
btw...
I do believe GOD is bound by His Word, more on that later, maybe?
Grace, Peace and Much Love... t.f.
Hi Thom,
Thanks for your input! Hope you don't mind where I disagree.
Happy Phanthom: I always hope someone reads me first too
Rhology: Yup, I read a fair amount of your blog. It was very educational indeed.
Happy Phanthom: I agree with Dave and VB, you are exhausting to read and even more to converse with.
Rhology: Ah, is that the excuse that you are going to put forward for the VB?
Now, I'm not blaming Dave - I think he did an excellent job in conversation. I can understand limited time.
I am amazed, however, that you who claim to be a Christian (or kind of) would step forward to defend a guy whose handle is Vile Blasphemer and whose blog consists almost entirely of disgusting videos. Priorities, Thom.
Happy Phanthom: you believe you're presenting a rational discourse but it's kinda hard not to be distracted by the REPENT sign you wear.
Rhology: May I ask: 1) Do you believe that it is irrational to ask someone to repent of their objective sin?
2) Is it irrational to talk like Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul did?
Happy Phanthom: It's very clear to everyone but you that it's everybody else's truth that "rubs you the wrong way"...
Rhology: My opponents in debate do not have "truth" on their side, for one thing. That's kind of the point of debating.
But most definitely "arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10:5) "rub me the wrong way" as they did Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul.
I will quote James White - "A strong spirit of anger? I see! Do forgive my zeal for the truth as well as the honor of God’s Word!"
Happy Phanthom: I felt Adam, Dave and the VB were very gracious
Rhology: Adam and Dave were mostly very gracious (w/ the exception of Dave's "corner preacher" comment).
What about how the VB interacted w/ me was gracious? Never interacting w/ what I was saying? Never answering questions? Running away? Calling me a "crazy"?
Happy Phanthom: You "do it" not to win souls, but to win the debate.
Rhology: You have no idea of my motivations. Is assigning nefarious motives to someone charitable and gracious, Thom? You owe me an apology.
Happy Phanthom: You practically said so to VB.
Rhology: Where?
Happy Phanthom: It's clear he's learned it's futile to engage with your type on a site like his.
Rhology: Yes, b/c he's a bully - big and tough to those who can't engage him on a rational level like YouNeedGrace (a commenter on VB's blog) but a wimp when someone actually challenges him and doesn't back down.
Happy Phanthom: I really believe that if someone can't give away a free gift (grace) it's because they haven't received it themselves.
Rhology: Ah, so now it's charitable and gracious to question whether I even have salvation?
Let me ask you a question, and it's a serious one, not rhetorical: What is the Gospel? How is a sinner able to stand before a holy God?
Happy Phanthom: you seem incompetent at discerning where people are at in their journey of "seeking God" or "growing up".
Rhology: As mentioned before, milk and meat are FOOD. Adam and VB are on a strict poison diet. I am surprised that you who seem to adept at judging me are at the same time unable to judge between poison and good food, whether milk or meat.
Happy Phanthom: Be sensitive to hunger and provide the right food.
Rhology: If I treated my beloved daughter Nadia physically like you want to treat Adam and VB spiritually, she would have been dead a long time ago, having been deprived of the truth, the Word of God, and having been given nothing but arsenic. How is that loving? How does that wish the best for Adam or the VB?
Happy Phanthom: In the short time I've known Adam, I feel he's developing doctrine that grounds him in the flesh but I'm confident he'll find GOD completely in the end. (emph mine)
Rhology: Oh, you feel he is, do you? Very well - I feel he's dead spiritually and an enemy of God.
...
See how empty our "feelings" can be? That's why I have engaged him (and you) on the basis of God's Word.
Happy Phanthom: Proof for me is the fruit I see in him.
Rhology: The fruit of preaching heresy is death, my friend. Please, broaden your gaze.
Happy Phanthom: GOD started a work in Adam and will complete it, it's a promise I believe in.
Rhology: According to the Scripture, the only work that God is working in Adam, if he does not repent, is death and just condemnation under God's Law that Adam has broken time and time again (indeed, as we all have, me most of all; thanks to Jesus Christ however I am innocent).
Happy Phanthom: Words only hurt people that are grounded in their flesh, that's why you're so sensitive.
Rhology: Your bare assertion against the Word of God.
Happy Phanthom: If you have read my blog you'll find that is my mission, teaching people how to walk in the spirit
Rhology: Rather you teach people how to doubt the clearest revelation of the Savior.
Happy Phanthom: I do believe GOD is bound by His Word, more on that later, maybe?
Rhology: Please do. I would also be interested in knowing why you teach people to doubt God's Word. That's a dangerous game, friend. Adam and the VB are good at it; Dave flirts w/ it. Hopefully you will learn from their example.
Peace,
ALAN
Hi Alan...
More Verbosity... :>)
1.Thanks for reading and I guess for not commenting too.
2.I believe Dave mentioned exhausting, I just second that.
3.What I did for VB is a bit like what Jesus did for all sinners including you.
4.If you read my blog I wrote a bit about confession and repentance and how I believe it was intended to work. Different than "your way"
I would guess, so it's wrong I'm sure... ;>)
REPENT!!! Of pride... ;>)
You don't sound like Jesus or Paul. More like John Mac and James White, neither of which are apostles, Just men. You even may have a little slice of Laya Duh Cya in you too.
5.Your "opponents" have their truths and beliefs on their side too. They're just "ignorant" of the Gospel or have been exposed to other "preachers" (I use that term gently in your case).
My Advice, offered as freely as you give...
Pray for discernment, ALWAYS...
6.VB was gracious; he could have called you worse.
7.Sorry but No Apology.
What were your motives?
You wanted a debate and as you put it, "a convo partner", on your terms to "sharpen you".
You said you were "slow and dense" in that "debate". I agree.
That's why God is working through the emerging movement in reaching post moderns. You no speaka da language and that's cool...
Welcome to PoMoVille...
Fundie trolls site, engages convo by asking questions, Enemy may or may not answer but will ask more questions,Fundie answers to best of ability (kudos’, some better than most),Enemy counters with more questions to get a read on Fundie.
Now depending on density...this could go on and on and on till Fundie gets cranky and cries REPENT or a slicker retort.
8.Scorecard, Yep, VB the enemy is no match for a "gracious and charitable" bully like you. PTL!!!
9.You can debate God whether you're saved or not. I'm just sayin' if you're as ineffective at sharing the Gospel with VB and his readers as you appear to be, maybe you should pray like Paul did for "almost persuading King Agrippa" to become a christian. You weren't even close.
A little more advice...
God does the "leading" not you...
10.Do you have any discernment gifts at all? Scrap the "poison" metaphor it's just B.S. just tell the truth, If Adam or VB have not received Christ, they're DEAD!
Milk or Meat doesn't do them any good.
Are you capable of "Giving Life”?
Only Christ does that... Not You...
After reading more of your stuff,
I don't know if you're capable of "sharing light". All you see is darkness and then you curse it.
11.I'm sure you love Nadia, I am very thankful she has a Loving mother. You are right, she's sweet.
12.I stand corrected...
I don't feel.
I Believe and Know concerning Adam's doctrine and fruit.
13.Funny, it always comes back to Adam and Jesus.
I'll diagram it, that seems to work 4U... Gal 5: 22-26
Adam bearing fruit = No Law
No Law = No Sin
Sinners are saved by grace through faith in Christ... Not by some strict adherence to "your perfect doctrinal statement".
Somewhere in time, Adam accepted Jesus, received the Holy Spirit and has been bearing fruit since.
He may or may not be confused in his "doctrine" but is Loved by God.
It's not an unforgivable sin to question doctrine or doubt God. I'll leave the judging to a charitable and gracious God, not to somebody who "thinks" they are.
Please, broaden your gaze.
You look but don't see, listen but don't hear, have a hardened heart and don't feel... REPENT! ;>)
14.Word's hurt you not because of your "interpretation" of the "Word of God" but because you're carnal not spiritual.
You "do the christian thing" out of fear of the law, not Love.
Not by a mind "transformed" by the "Living Word" dwelling within, but by trying to apply it like a bandage on your cancerous condition.
My bare assertion is to Love and Bless those who curse and persecute me. Even if they use sticks, stones, crosses and words.
I believe Jesus said that, Correct?
Watching "your" tongue may apply to you though; it's a personal application. ;>)
15.I aim to "expose" christianity in the hope that others may see Christ and His Body...
16.I don't doubt God's Word, do you?
A little mystery.
Believe it or not. I doubt you will, it would take faith...
A long, long time ago during a time of worship, prayer and fasting, our whole group became aware that God was asking us to step out in faith in praying big prayers even if we felt we had little faith. All of us had a flood of scripture open up before us about asking God for anything so our Joy would be full, and faith of a mustard seed moving mountains, God giving us the desires of our hearts, Binding and releasing on earth and in heaven, God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven, that he desires "ALL" to be saved and on and on...
Well, you might have guessed it...
We ALL (more than 2 or 3 gathered in His Name))asked that ALL would be saved, even those ignorant of Christ's sacrifice.
Know what?
Even before we asked, God answered and said He "DID IT"!!!
A long long time ago as a matter of fact...
So I ask...
Is GOD bound by HIS WORD through the prayer of FAITH or what???
Pick up my new book...
And That Is Why I Am A Universalist
A Best Seller people are dying for!
Grace, Peace and Much Love... t.f.
Hi Thom,
Re: verbosity. I removed the lines where I was quoting you from my last post and ran my post and yours thru MS Word's word counter.
Score: My post was 2887 characters, 649 words. Yours was 4230 characters and 945 words. Even w/ your quotes still in there, mine was 4240 and 943. Just saying.
Phanthom: What I did for VB is a bit like what Jesus did for all sinners including you.
Rhology: You told him how to live? You died for his sin and rose again? You offer him eternal life on your own authority?
Phanthom: Different than "your way"
Rhology: More on point, it's not biblically supportable. Since mine, by contrast, is biblically supportable...
Phanthom: REPENT!!! Of pride...
Rhology: One of the diffs between us is that I point out specifically what I mean.
But you can change that - where have I exhibited sinful pride?
Phanthom: You don't sound like Jesus or Paul.
Rhology: You mean when Jesus' main msg was "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" or when Paul told the Galatians that they would be accursed of God if they twisted the Gospel?
Phanthom: You even may have a little slice of Laya Duh Cya in you too.
Rhology: In what way?
Phanthom: 5.Your "opponents" have their truths and beliefs on their side too.
Rhology: They have their beliefs on their side, yes. And even complete pagans recognise some true things as true. But he who follows the Bible has much more truth in his worldview.
Phanthom: They're just "ignorant" of the Gospel
Rhology: Adam, Dave, and VB are not ignorant of the Gospel (Dave is, I have little doubt, a true believer in Jesus Christ, which would necessarily mean that he knows the Gospel). Wake up.
Phanthom: Pray for discernment, ALWAYS...
Rhology: What shall I pray to discern?
Phanthom: 6.VB was gracious; he could have called you worse.
Rhology: This is just a foolish thing to say, as anyone who reads the convo between the VB and can see. That's why I posted it on my sidebar.
Phanthom: 7.Sorry but No Apology.
What were your motives?
Rhology: You have questioned whether I have salvation and you have stated w/ certainty that I debate "not to win souls, but to win the debate".
You have acted in unjust judgment against me. You know, the fruit of a stubborn and hardened heart is the inability and/or unwillingness to admit it did wrong.
My motives are to challenge the wrong beliefs held by whomever I challenge in hope that they will see the truth.
Phanthom: That's why God is working through the emerging movement in reaching post moderns.
Rhology: Whatever. And you should ask VB if he's Emergent. He won't answer, but if he did, the answer is obvious.
Phanthom: Fundie trolls site
Rhology: Troll = stopping by once to offer a quick cheap shot. You're no troll - to your credit you've interacted w/ me. I'm no troll - I stick around to interact too.
Phanthom: Fundie trolls site, engages convo by asking questions, Enemy may or may not answer but will ask more questions,Fundie answers to best of ability (kudos’, some better than most),Enemy counters with more questions to get a read on Fundie.
Rhology: I think it's pretty clear that it went more like this:
Fundie links to site from a different blog where the VB was trolling, engages convo by asking questions, VB never answers but asks more questions, Fundie answers to best of ability and repeats his questions, Enemy counters with more questions that seem to be follow-ups but are in large part non-sequiturs to get a read on Fundie and still never answers Fundie's questions.
Phanthom: this could go on and on and on till Fundie gets cranky and cries REPENT or a slicker retort.
Rhology: Oh? Who left the convo first - me or VB?
Phanthom: 9.You can debate God whether you're saved or not.
Rhology: Thank God I don't have to.
Phanthom: God does the "leading" not you...
Rhology: Oh, so I should be more like you and let "God" "lead" me to NOT share the truth w/ people? That's a great idea.
Phanthom: If Adam or VB have not received Christ, they're DEAD!
Rhology: Um, that's kind of my point. And they keep refusing milk and meat, sticking w/ arsenic.
Phanthom: Are you capable of "Giving Life”? Only Christ does that... Not You...
Rhology: Only Christ does that, THRU me. And the Holy Spirit. And other people who share the truth.
Phanthom: I don't know if you're capable of "sharing light". All you see is darkness and then you curse it.
Rhology: OK, whatever.
Phanthom: Adam bearing fruit = No Law... No Law = No Sin
Rhology: Yes, and w/o law there is no judgment. And w/o judgment, no need for Redeemer.
But Adam is blowing smoke - he takes the horrible things that obviously go on in the world and just sticks his fingers in his eyes and ears and says "I'm not listening! No sin, I said!!!"
Phanthom: Sinners are saved by grace through faith in Christ... Not by some strict adherence to "your perfect doctrinal statement".
Rhology: It's both b/c you have to have the right Christ to put your faith in. This is just plain common sense.
Phanthom: It's not an unforgivable sin to question doctrine or doubt God. I'll leave the judging to a charitable and gracious God, not to somebody who "thinks" they are.
Rhology: Given that God has clearly revealed in His Word what is damning and what is not, I fear terribly for the souls of VB, Adam, and you yourself, b/c you think God will be cool w/ all your sin and unbelief when you come before His judgment.
Phanthom: You "do the christian thing" out of fear of the law, not Love.
Rhology: You just keep throwing rocks, but give no reason for anyone to believe you.
Phanthom: We ALL (more than 2 or 3 gathered in His Name))asked that ALL would be saved, even those ignorant of Christ's sacrifice.
Rhology: It's a good-hearted thing to ask, but at the same time it is foolish.
Let me just say this (which should be common sense): When God clearly and explicitly reveals something in His Word, if you pray that He change it, the answer will always be "No."
Phanthom: Even before we asked, God answered and said He "DID IT"!!!
Rhology: Well, no, He said No and you have been deceived into thinking He said yes.
There's still time to change, but judging from your attitude, I kind of doubt that is forthcoming.
Mock me, impugn my motives, don't believe me, whatever - I desire what is best for you. And the best for you is to repent and ask for mercy from the One True God.
Peace,
ALAN
Hi Alan...
I am sorry to point this out again but you admitted to being "slow and dense" to the VB and I have to agree with your assessment.
Praise God for the truth... ;>)
RE. verbosity...
I meant that about "me" not you!
Wow, a word counter seems a bit anal (but I dig that about you).
Not in a "gay way", that would be dirty and bad... :>)
So I gave you points for resourcefulness.
Let me know my score on this one.
I figured with the VB you complained about not answering questions, so I thought I'd be verbose with you. I hope you don't mind. You seemed to like it in Adam's case.
I won't respond to every point,
but I liked these...
Phanthom: What I did for VB is a bit like what Jesus did for all sinners including you.
Rhology: You told him how to live? You died for his sin and rose again? You offer him eternal life on your own authority?
No, I was thinking more about defending sinners from the scribes and "sinless stoners"... ;>)
Note to yourself, please check context.
Phanthom: Pray for discernment, ALWAYS...
Rhology: What shall I pray to discern?
Here's something you're not used to, trace it back to the context.
Looks like a glaring weakness.
Phanthom: 7.Sorry but No Apology.
What were your motives?
Rhology: You have questioned whether I have salvation and you have stated w/ certainty that I debate "not to win souls, but to win the debate".
You have acted in unjust judgment against me. You know, the fruit of a stubborn and hardened heart is the inability and/or unwillingness to admit it did wrong.
My motives are to challenge the wrong beliefs held by whomever I challenge in hope that they will see the truth.
I'm "reflecting you" as an example and what do you do?
Judge and accuse me of the same thing you do. Talk about a hardened heart and head.
That's the lesson on judging...
Don't like it? then don't do it.
You sound like a baby with cramps and gas...
Phanthom: That's why God is working through the emerging movement in reaching post moderns.
Rhology: Whatever. And you should ask VB if he's Emergent. He won't answer, but if he did, the answer is obvious.
Like you said, slow and dense...
The VB is the post modern. The answer "is obvious", except to you.
Phanthom: God does the "leading" not you...
Rhology: Oh, so I should be more like you and let "God" "lead" me to NOT share the truth w/ people? That's a great idea.
Yes, be more like me. and let "God Lead" you to share the truth of Christ that gives freedom not the bondage to the law that you preach.
I could go on but you're shortening your responses and not linking as many bible verses. You must be getting ready to end our "convo".
The "carnal man" is coming out more. I think I even read a couple immature "whatevers", and the "throwing rocks" line.
I'll go easy on you and give Ya a
Holy Kiss...
Keep It Stupid Simple...;>)
Let's reason together...
I flesh this out on my blog (and like the bible) It's best to read
it from the beginning to the present and not out of context like you are prone to doing. First get the "Big Picture/Concept/Context"
and then read and compile the supporting details.
You choose to read and believe only what you want to and the result is the feeling of being superior to others in your knowledge.
Sounds like a gnostic to me.
My way of teaching who we are "In Christ"(Walking Spirits), levels the field for "everyone" to do the things Christ did and leads to freedom, fruit and creates unity. Something Jesus personally prayed for at the end of John's Gospel.
At face value and with logic, the God I believe in and that is manifested in Jesus Christ is "GREATER THAN" your "little" version.
The Agape/Unconditional Love and Grace/Unmerited Favor of my God
is not restrained by your finite understanding and imagination.
The "written word" you worship, lead me to a relationship with the "Living Word" I worship...
Gee, now I sound like Paul boasting about my relationship with God.
In conclusion?
I admit I was bored and questioned whether to respond or not, but Thanks for sparring with me.
I still believe you're perverting the Gospel like Paul mentioned.
So in "your words"...
There's still time to change, but judging from your attitude, I kind of doubt that is forthcoming.
Mock me, impugn my motives, don't believe me, whatever - I desire what is best for you. And the best for you is to repent and ask for mercy from the One True God.
I prayed for you already, God said Yes, you are saved! PTL!!!
Faith,
Being "sure" of what we "hope for" and certain of what we "do not" see.
It's impossible to please God without showing some.
But I have faith in you Buddy!
With Much Love and the Hope that you would experience the Peace of Ephesians 2:14-18 ... t.f.
Hi Thom,
Again I thank you for commenting. If nothing else, you offer a confidence-boost to the hearts of the faithful - those who oppose the Truth have little to offer to satisfy the mind, heart, or soul.
You said:
I won't respond to every point, but I liked these...
It helps me understand what things you are uncomfortable w/ discussing. It is possible the reader will have to reach his own conclusions about your motives for skipping so many of my questions. Is the VB advising you in the art of avoiding questions?
You said:
pray for discernment; check the context
I did - you were referring to knowing that my opponents have truth too. I gave you the reason why they don't. Now you're telling me to pray to find out if they do. You're like a Mormon - "Yeah, yeah, the Bible says what I'm saying is false, but you should pray to find out whether it's true!"
You said:
Judge and accuse me of the same thing you do. Talk about a hardened heart and head.
Let the reader judge. Personally, I'm shaking my head.
You said:
The VB is the post modern. The answer "is obvious", except to you.
Ah. And the Emergents are doing a good job "reaching" him how?
You said:
let "God Lead" you to share the truth of Christ that gives freedom not the bondage to the law that you preach.
This is a very Scripturally ignorant reply.
You said:
I flesh this out on my blog (and like the bible) It's best to read it from the beginning to the present and not out of context like you are prone to do
Don't get me wrong. I highly encourage anyone to read your blog. I'm 100% serious. It is a useful case study of what can happen when one abandons the authority of Scripture.
You said:
the God I believe in and that is manifested in Jesus Christ is "GREATER THAN" your "little" version.
In what way?
You said:
The Agape/Unconditional Love and Grace/Unmerited Favor of my God is not restrained by your finite understanding and imagination.
Nor, it seems, is it limited by God's own revelation in the Scripture.
You said:
The "written word" you worship, lead me to a relationship with the "Living Word" I worship...
I already responded to that above. Here's the leading phrase of my response: No offense, but that is a ridiculous strawman Ctrl+F it to find it, then you can make an intelligent response if you care to.
You said:
now I sound like Paul boasting about my relationship with God.
Not really.
You said:
Thanks for sparring with me.
It has genuinely been a pleasure.
You said:
I prayed for you already, God said Yes, you are saved!
I know *I'm* saved. The question has been revolving around whether you and those who believe your words are.
Peace to you,
ALAN
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