Saturday, February 09, 2013

A conversation with Margaret Sanger



Margaret Sanger
 · 64 like this
16 hours ago · 
  • Pregnancy: The only blessing that has to be forced on people
    Like ·  · 
    • 11 people like this.
    • Margaret Sanger Love the bullshit. None of your 'rebuttals' work. Have a nice day!
    • Rhology Why don't they work?
    • Margaret Sanger "Left alone, the very small baby will become a larger baby, and eventually a born baby. Left alone, the violinist will die."
      Left alone, the embryo/fetus will die. No aid, no potential life.
    • Margaret Sanger "The stranger in the violinist scenario never consented. In ~99% of cases, the woman consented to sexual intercourse. Are 99% of women asleep when their "involuntary hook-up" happened?"

      Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. The blastocyst implants without the woman's knowledge or consent.
    • Margaret Sanger "he baby is not an invader. He is an innocent party"
      Yes, the embryo is an invader. It has to force the woman's body to let it stay there and not be attacked. Women who have certain autoimmune diseases cannot continue a pregnancy since their body attacks the foreign cells.
    • Margaret Sanger "execution without due process of law is not justified"
      Self defense is very legal.
    • Margaret Sanger "Conception followed by eviction from the womb could be compared to capturing someone, placing him on an airplane, and then shoving him out without a parachute in mid-flight. "
      Again consent has to be continuous. And consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. If the man in the airplane attacked you, you have every right to defend yourself. This is a poor analogy.
    • Margaret Sanger ""Causing a child to be is not, in itself, endangerment (it's a normal, natural fact of life)"
      Sex is a natural fact of life, but rape isn't legal.

      "because the very fact of pregnancy automatically protects the child against the possible dangers of an
      unsupportive environment."
      Nope, the person who wrote this must not know about pregnancy. There is nothing that can protect anything from danger.

      "But by conceiving a child, parents give themselves a life-or-death power over her, and they do this without her consent. If parents intentionally or negligently use their power to put her in harm's way (let her starve, say), they cause the danger. If the child gets harmed, they caused the harm. They initiated force and violated the child's rights."

      If a born child's rights are violated, the child gets taken from the offenders. Another pathetic attempt.
    • Margaret Sanger "Not many would say that leaving one's infant unattended in hazardous situations is a matter of the parent's choice. When their children get very sick in the middle of the night and need help, most abortion choicers don't go back to sleep saying, 'So what if my kid might die? I have the right to control my own body, don't I?"

      Again, confusing the law.
    • Margaret Sanger "First, the violinist is artificially attached to the woman. A mother's unborn baby, however, is not surgically connected, nor was it ever 'attached' to her. Instead, the baby is being produced by the mother's own body by the natural process of reproduction"
      Someone else needs to learn biology.
    • Margaret Sanger ""A child is not...a parasite living off his mother. A mother's womb is the baby's natural environment."'
      Appeals to nature do not help you. A penis naturally goes into a vagina. Cancer and illness are natural.
      And it is in fact a parasite. Intraspecific kleptoparasite.
    • Margaret Sanger ""...the violinist illustration is not parallel to pregnancy because it equates a stranger/stranger relationship with a mother/child relationship...What if the mother woke up from an accident to find herself surgically connected to her own child?""
      An embryo is a stranger for starters. And same rules apply to the latter. No consent.
    • Margaret Sanger ""Blood relationships are never based on choice, yet they entail moral obligations, nonetheless."
      --"If it is moral for a mother to deny her child the necessities of life (through abortion) before (he) is born, how can she be obligated to provide the same necessities after he's born?"

      Morality is subjective. And after an infant is born, anyone can take care of it.
    • Goldie McGoddess I love how they suddenly go from "save every life!" to "you only have to care about life that is related to you.. and umm only if that life is inside your uterus.. because dude, don't take my kidney"
      5 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Margaret Sanger "I would add here that this is why we abolitionists also care for mothers during and after pregnancy as well as adopt children that they are unable to raise on their own."

      LOL is that why we have over half a million children in foster care?
    • Goldie McGoddess Sanger, I guess that is why they refuse to allow abortion to save the life of a mother.. and they support ending welfare programs. Because you know.. they care.
    • Margaret Sanger "mistaken in presuming that pregnancy is the thing that expropriates a woman's liberty. Motherhood does that, and motherhood doesn't end with the birth of the child."
      Again, anyone can take care of the child after it's born.
      5 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Margaret Sanger I never will ever understand how quantity is better than quality
    • Goldie McGoddess Right. no one is ever mandated to take custody of the child or even breast feed it. Providing aid is different than providing bodily resources.
    • Rhology \\Left alone, the embryo/fetus will die. No aid, no potential life.\\

      That's not true. The fetus is naturally connected to the woman and will be born. You have to intervene to stop him from living. You're playing on a disanalogy.

      \\Consent to sex is 
      not consent to pregnancy\

      Except in the case of rape, which is rare, this incoherent.
      http://www.vox-veritatis.com/2012/01/the-incoherence-of-consenting-to-pregnancy/

      \\It has to force the woman's body\\

      You have a poor definition of "force". Prove your definition. In what way did the fetus force his way in? What weaponry did he use? Why weren't the police called?

      \\Women who have certain autoimmune diseases cannot continue a pregnancy since their body attacks the foreign cells.\\

      Ah, so diseases justify murdering a child. OK.

      \\Self defense is very legal.\\

      This depends on your proving the fetus is attacking you. Which is laughable.
      Have you ever seen a baby? They're not all that strong, not all that good at assault, or jiujitsu.

      \\ If the man in the airplane attacked you, you have every right to defend yourself.\\

      Shrug. The baby didn't attack you, so...

      \\If a born child's rights are violated, the child gets taken from the offenders.\\

      It's cute how you assume a born child has rights and a preborn one doesn't. Prove it.

      \\ Instead, the baby is being produced by the mother's own body by the natural process of reproduction"
      Someone else needs to learn biology.\\

      Yes, you sure do. Perhaps you think that some other person is providing the building blocks of the baby's body, through surgical transplant? 
      Please.

      \\And it is in fact a parasite\\

      http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#the-fetus-is-a-parasite

      \\Cancer and illness are natural.\\

      How do you figure that? I disagree entirely. They are products of sin and the fall of man.

      \\An embryo is a stranger for starters.\\

      To whom the mother voluntarily 'attached' herself in almost every case.

      \\Morality is subjective.\\

      So none of your moral statements have any application beyond you, yes?
      Please let me know if you think that is true of torturing little girls for fun, which is approximately the most disgusting thing I can think of. 
      If Joe Doe says to you "I think torturing little girls for fun is morally obligatory" and you say "I think it's morally reprehensible", is there a way to find out which of you is correct? Are either of you correct and is the other wrong?

      \\I love how they suddenly go from "save every life!" to "you only have to care about life that is related to you.. and umm only if that life is inside your uterus.. because dude, don't take my kidney"\\

      Please clarify. That doesn't make sense.

      \\LOL is that why we have over half a million children in foster care?\\

      You're acting like there are millions of abolitionists. Don't get carried away. Stuff takes time to build, and people take time to wake up, sadly.

      \\ I guess that is why they refuse to allow abortion to save the life of a mother\\

      http://abolishhumanabortion.com/faq/#life-of-the-mother-is-in-danger

      \\anyone can take care of the child after it's born.\\

      Giving away one's child doesn't make one any less a mother than abortion makes one any less a mother of a murdered child. You've missed the point.


      www.vox-veritatis.com
      Examines the idea that a woman can consent to pregnancy, in the context of pro-c...See More
    • Goldie McGoddess Abortion isn't for the fetus. It is to safely remove the fetus from the woman's body. That the fetus dies in the process is immaterial. Her bodily integrity comes first.
    • Margaret Sanger \\Women who have certain autoimmune diseases cannot continue a pregnancy since their body attacks the foreign cells.\\

      Ah, so diseases justify murdering a child. OK."

      I see you have a comprehension problem. Her body itself attacks the embryo. Nice to know you consider women who have natural abortions murderers.
    • Margaret Sanger \\Left alone, the embryo/fetus will die. No aid, no potential life.\\

      That's not true. The fetus is naturally connected to the woman and will be born. You have to intervene to stop him from living. You're playing on a disanalogy."

      If I deny aid, and access to my body, the embryo/fetus gets removed. And it dies naturally.
    • Margaret Sanger Force: power to influence, affect, or control. Your definition is quite limited.
    • Margaret Sanger \\LOL is that why we have over half a million children in foster care?\\

      You're acting like there are millions of abolitionists. Don't get carried away. Stuff takes time to build, and people take time to wake up, sadly.

      Yet you're focusing only on forcing women to remain pregnant. The born are more important than the unborn.
    • Goldie McGoddess Goodness Rho.. nice bit of verbal ranting there. If you are going to address me, try not to hide it. I don't bother reading long posts that are not addressed to me. Someone happened to mention you addressed my post in it. 

      Prolifers often claim "all l
      ife is special/precious" " everyone has a right to life".. you know. .emotional drivel. However, the minute you ask if they would support being mandated to hand over their bodily resources to save the life of another, you get "umm but I am not related to them" 

      Apparently, only a woman loses her right to bodily integrity because she is related to the fetus. This is not supported by any legal precedence. She is not obligated to hand over her bodily resources to save the life of a relation. 

      As for the whole "consenting to sex = consenting to pregnancy" .. umm no. Only I get to say what I have consented to through my actions. A rapist doesn't get to say my short skirt was consent to sex.. anymore than you get to say my having sex was a consent to pregnancy. I have to express my consent to either action.
    • Margaret Sanger Abortion is also not murder. Would you like a dictionary? I have been giving them away in honor of the 40th anniversary of RvW
    • Goldie McGoddess And seriously.. stop citing your blogs as a source.. it isnt .It is just a blog.
    • Goldie McGoddess Well, I am going to bed.. it seems to be just cut and pasting from the blogs of others.. not worth my time. See ya later, sweet cheeks.
      4 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Rhology \\ It is to safely remove the fetus from the woman's body. That the fetus dies in the process is immaterial.\\

      Safely? The fetus dies. It is a murderous intervention. You know that as well as I do.

      \\Her body itself attacks the embryo.\\

      My kids turned out OK, and you and I both did too. This is misleadingly simplistic.
      Where did the child get the hormones to change the mother's body's behavior anyway? Did he carry them in with him when he burrowed into her flesh?

      \\ Nice to know you consider women who have natural abortions murderers.\\

      That's nonsense and you know it.

      \\If I deny aid, and access to my body, the embryo/fetus gets removed\\

      You can't "deny" aid once he's there. Yuo have to intentionally intervene. That's murder.
      Also, you had the chance to deny access before you had sex. 

      \\Yet you're focusing only on forcing women to remain pregnant.\\

      No, that's just not true, but you get a pass b/c you're ignorant. Please learn more about us before you make foolish judgments that make you look bad.

      \\The born are more important than the unborn.\\

      I might agree in some sense, but I want you to prove it. How do you gauge importance? What is your objective standard of measurement?

      \\Goodness Rho.. nice bit of verbal ranting there.\\

      I was actually quite restrained.

      \\ I don't bother reading long posts that are not addressed to me\\

      Part of it *was* addressed to you, so...

      \\the minute you ask if they would support being mandated to hand over their bodily resources to save the life of another, you get "umm but I am not related to them"\\

      1) That's not true of everyone. Don't overgeneralise.
      2) They're right to say that - there's a special obligation that comes along with family that doesn't exist for not-family. You know this as well as I, but you chose to ignore it to try to score a point.

      \\only a woman loses her right to bodily integrity because she is related to the fetus.\\

      No, that's only part of it. It's b/c murdering the fetus is murder. 

      \\This is not supported by any legal precedence\\

      So quoth the slaveowner at the beginning of the 18th century. So what? Laws are often wrong.

      \\As for the whole "consenting to sex = consenting to pregnancy" .. umm no.\\

      You're just asserting; I gave you a whole article demonstrating this is true. Refute it please.

      \\A rapist doesn't get to say my short skirt was consent to sex\\

      I agree, but the baby is not a rapist.

      \\stop citing your blogs as a source.. it isnt .It is just a blog.\\

      The blog contains ARGUMENTS. Try reading a bit, and try not committing the genetic fallacy next time.
    • Margaret Sanger So you actually have kids? Are you a mother or are you just the sperm donor?
    • Margaret Sanger " The fetus dies." Blame biology for it not being autonomous.
    • Margaret Sanger "Yes, you sure do. Perhaps you think that some other person is providing the building blocks of the baby's body"
      Sperm contains half of the genetic code needed to attempt to form a human.
    • Margaret Sanger How do you figure that? I disagree entirely. They are products of sin and the fall of man."
      I am not religious. Mutation is completely natural and effects life either beneficially or negatively.
    • Margaret Sanger Could you please tell me how your link debunks the classification of a parasite a fetus falls under?
    • Margaret Sanger "My kids turned out OK, and you and I both did too. This is misleadingly simplistic.
      Where did the child get the hormones to change the mother's body's behavior anyway?"

      I gave you an example of what happens when the blastocyst cannot bypass the woman's immune system.
    • Margaret Sanger "You can't "deny" aid once he's there. Yuo have to intentionally intervene. That's murder.
      Also, you had the chance to deny access before you had sex. "
      Again. Consent has to be continous and can be revoked. If I consent to sex, and during the act, I decide I want out, I can revoke sex and intervene to get the man out of me. If he does not it's rape and I can use lethal force if necessary.
    • Rho Logy \\Blame biology for it not being autonomous.\\

      You removed it from its environment. What if Joe Doe positively intervened and shoved you under water for 10 minutes, evicted you out of your environment? Blame your biology for not being autonomous, righ
      t? Joe wasn't wrong in what he did. 

      \\Sperm contains half of the genetic code needed to attempt to form a human.\\

      Yep, knew that. So what?

      \\I am not religious. Mutation is completely natural and effects life either beneficially or negatively.\\

      1) Facts are facts, whether you're religious or not. 
      2) Since you think morality is subjective, you don't have an objective way to know whether mutations are beneficial. They just ARE.
    • Rho Logy \\ Could you please tell me how your link debunks the classification of a parasite a fetus falls under?\\

      It's better if you just read it.
    • Rho Logy \\I gave you an example of what happens when the blastocyst cannot bypass the woman's immune system.\\

      But you stumbled where you thought that proved that the woman's body treats the fetus as an enemy or something. You need to strengthen that point.
    • Rho Logy \\Consent has to be continous and can be revoked.\\

      1) Prove it. 
      2) Does this apply to a 5 year old child? If not, why not?

      \\I can revoke sex and intervene to get the man out of me.\\

      True, but if he has already ejaculated, time is not on your side. 

      \\If he does not it's rape and I can use lethal force if necessary.\\

      I agree with that, sure, but what has that to do with whether it's OK to murder a human being whom you brought into existence?
    • Margaret Sanger "But you stumbled where you thought that proved that the woman's body treats the fetus as an enemy or something. You need to strengthen that point."
      It does, unless it can bypass the immune system. Wasn't that clear?
    • Margaret Sanger "It's better if you just read it."
      I did, nothing says I'm wrong about the classification.
    • Margaret Sanger "You removed it from its environment. What if Joe Doe positively intervened and shoved you under water for 10 minutes, evicted you out of your environment? Blame your biology for not being autonomous, right? Joe wasn't wrong in what he did. "
      Do you have a PO box I can mail you the dictionary to? You aren't using autonomous correctly.
    • Rho Logy \\It does, unless it can bypass the immune system\

      The woman's body is the one who gives the fetus the ability to do that. 
      This is part of God's design. No, it doesn't change anything if you don't believe in God. 

      \\I did, nothing says I'm wrong about the classification.\\

      Then you have poor reading comprehension skills.

      \\Do you have a PO box I can mail you the dictionary to? You aren't using autonomous correctly.\\

      This isn't an argument either. 
      But let's take it a step further. Prove you have autonomy.

4 comments:

Justin said...

Lovin' it.

Mike Westfall said...

I wonder what the hangup is on the word, "autonomous?"

Sure, an unborn baby is not autonomous, but neither is a three year old.

Paul Reed said...

I read your arguments on "Nobody can use my body without my consent". This is the most commonly used argument by pro-aborts, and it almost always goes unchallenged or poorly challenged. Why didn't you bring up the Selective Service and how men can be drafted? Once drafted, they can even be maimed or killed. So much for the idea that the government doesn't have control over your body. This idea that you have freedom to control your body is ridiculous and easily refuted.

Justin said...

Further on Paul's point-

Rep. Rangel has proposed re-instituting the draft, and requiring women to register for selective service.

Infanticide advocates should be opposing this one, to be consistent.