Wednesday, February 06, 2013

Frank Turk thinks I should put a sock in it

'Cause, see, I'm not only a mostly-presuppositionalist (though I appreciate a halfway-decent classical-type argument in favor of God's existence; see my left sidebar for a few I like and am willing to defend) but also an abolitionist of human abortion.

But shame on me for thinking that calling people to repent of their sin and their worthless arguments against God, whose lack of worth they can't see because their minds are twisted and their eyes are blinded, which twisting and which blindness are only removed through the proclamation of God's law and of God's Gospel, is the way to deal with sin. Because, you know, it also declares to the so-called fact-based advocate for this procedure that she's not immune to the power of a good story.

Sadly, Frank is not up to discussing this topic much, and that's why he closed the comments an hour or so after politely telling me not to talk anymore. OK, I can take a hint, bro.

Rhology said...

So you will excuse me if, on that basis, I will ask the presuppositionalist to stay out of it. He's most of the way out of it already anyway. If he wants to get involved, he should start where the person in question actually is rather than where he would rather they be.

Where the person actually is? You mean like a sinner in rebellion against God?

Frank, I often cite your comic book graphic guy saying "The Gospel is the solution to culture!" I loved that and still love it. In my mind, you coined the phrase.
The Gospel is the solution to abortion too. Not statistics, not societal trends. And people don't want to hear the Gospel b/c their minds are in rebellion to God. Better to show them the absurdity of their worldview than to cite "science". Skeptics are at their best when selectively ignoring facts. You know this as well as most.

So, respectfully, I will decline your invitation to put a sock in it. I will continue to preach the Gospel and reveal the worldview absurdity of those who persist in their hatred of God and try to justify it with worldly wisdom.


Rhology said...

the problem here is not establishing a plausible epistemological system

If I may, let me also add this:
A common criticism from presuppositionalists toward evidential/classical apologetics is that the ev/cl apologetics use the term "plausible".
Presupps don't - we talk about God's sovereignty and authority in all things and the utter worthlessness of the unbelieving worldview, of whatever stripe.

This evinces a bit of confusion here.

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...


But neither of us are post-millennials who think we will get a perfect world prior to the returns of Christ.

Well, I'm undecided on that. :-) My abolitionist friends are methodological post-mills, and that sounds fine to me as far as it goes.

In that: evangelism -cannot- be harnessed to political activism.

I don't see abolition as political activism. It is a moral issue, as you know. It is a choice a woman makes. It is an act of murder. And God has said "Don't murder" in His law. We express God's law and insist that women not murder their tiny babies. If they show repentance and brokennessas a lady and her daughter did just two weeks ago at the local abortuary then we preach the Gospel to them. It works great.

we can't expect people to first become Christians before they will stop killing babies, for example.

Either the Gospel is the solution, or it isn't.
But if you're wondering whether I'm in favor of illegalising abortion and making sure churches spend more on assisting women in crisis pregnancies, etc, than they do on lawn care and lighting, I'm right there with you.

the presuppositional point of retreat to Rom 1-2 utter supports /my view/ that the unsaved person has enough information to make a reasonable and informed choice to do what's right regarding, for example, the murder of babies.

True, except they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and the law of God is that which breaks that suppression.

It is obtainably-good to eliminate 95% of all abortions.

That may be, and that's fine, but let's not stop there. (I'm not proposing you think we should stop there, mind you.)
We as abolitionists are indeed pursuing the total renewal of the culture to Jesus, as we are commanded to in the New Testament.

we can do that without deanding that first: people adopt all our preconditions of moral reasoning.

So... we can do that without people thinking that murdering babies is wrong? How would you propose that happen?
Does "murder is wrong" even make sense on a secular worldview? You and I both know it does not. And that is exactly what I'm saying.

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...

Then, AS WE GO, we should preach the Gospel.

Let me share a bit of what I've learned so far about that.
We go, we preach the Gospel, and the Romanists that dominate the Pro-Life Movement turn on us and attack us with disturbing frequency. Since we preach the Gospel, we're "anti-Catholic".

We have to take that into account. Better to do what Jesus said in all cases and at all times, and let God take care of the consequences and the numbers and movement size.

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...

Because if they do, then whatever else you are doing is either ineffective and below the threshold of engagement, or way over their heads and therefore ineffective.

Preaching the law and Gospel and reducing competing worldviews to absurdity is ineffective or way over their heads?

No, Frank, that's just not the case. Plus, I'm not the best communicator in the world and I can easily lead people through the line of reasoning.
As a bonus, it's better than trying to lead people through a jungle of facts and figures and to jump over the naturalistic fallacy while you're at it.
As a double bonus, we get to preach the law of God the whole time. Imagine the potential.

I don't love your methodology, but you won't see me writing blog posts ripping you about it. I wish you'd returned the favor, and your critique isn't doing so hot.

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...

I don't think anyone said anything about accepting andbeing grateful for lesser outcomes than the ideal, but did you really mean to say we should be **SETTLING**?

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...

I don't think we should expect the government should be a christian theocracy before it bans the convenient murder of babies.

Sure, neither do we, but that's in some extent our goal.

The example we should follow, since it was brought up, is the example of abolition

We follow those guys' example. You are not, really. Not in the way you're framing the conversation here.

Grace and peace,

Rhology said...

I do wonder what the presuppositionalist would say to the Christian who is pro-choice?

We would proclaim the law to them, take them to the Word of God and call them to repent of their sin.
It's not very complicated, really. I doubt your approach is a whole lot different.

I'm wondering where all of this concern was last week when we were concerned with trying to bring shame to people because abortion is murder

B/c of the Gospel, an abortive woman can say she is a murderer without shame.

Grace and peace,

Frank Turk said...


That you are willing to say you don't want something which is you goal points to the problem.

Seriously: step away. Let it be a request rather than a requirement.


Turretinfan said...

It's disappointing to see that from Frank.

Anonymous said...

Meh, I'm actually encouraged by your approach.

Where the person actually is? You mean like a sinner in rebellion against God?

Pure gold.

Hughuenot said...

Here's the acid test for the matter: does the pro-abortion advocate see it as political activism? Because if they do, then whatever else you are doing is either ineffective and below the threshold of engagement, or way over their heads and therefore ineffective.

Who IS this Arminian, and why should we care?

Rhology said...

He has a name that he is alive.

But he did his name no favors today.

Elly McCall said...

Wow, this really grieves me. A lot. I'm very grateful that you spoke up on the pyros blog, thank you. It's so hard to see my fellow reformed brethren (I'm speaking now of pyros) deny the doctrine we so strongly proclaim the rest of the time: Sola Scriptura! If “the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12) - then why leave it behind? Do we have something better? And would our speaking out against abortion not be in obedience to Proverbs 31:8-9 in the first place, and therefore our basis is God's authority and His command? If we say that we are speaking out because it is a moral problem and not because it is a sin, then we as Christians need to repent for such thinking.

Sadly it seems that most Christians in the pro-life movement are believing the lie that the abortion "problem" is an information or resources problem. It is a sin issue. All that these dear Christians would have to do to see the truth is go to the sidewalk in front of an abortuary, and they would see God's Word proven true: Jeremiah 17:9 and Romans 1:18-32 lived out before their very eyes. No amount of information (scientific, even) and no amount of resources will stop most abortion-bound men and women from murdering their children. It must, must, must be the work of God in their hearts to turn them from their murderous ways. And God the Holy Spirit is pleased to use the Word of God to bring about the knowledge of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to draw sinners to God in repentance and faith in Christ.

I find nowhere in the Bible (Sola Scriptura, right?) that says that science will stop sinners from doing what they love doing: sinning. It is the law of God that sheds light on the wicked condition of our hearts, and causes us to see our need of Christ (Galatians 3:24).

There are many Christians who are making their opinions on abortion known through keystrokes, but will not actually go out to the unglamorous and flesh-displeasing frontlines of an abortuary - that would clear up much confusion, and would actually send them quite quickly to God's Word to see what the problem is: sin - and what the solution is: the Gospel.

May God grant repentance to His people for trusting in the wisdom of this world, rather than in Him.